BrianR

The saddest part of the fight (cant remember the round) is when Ali is in the corner and Holmes doesnt want to hit him anymore, realises Ali has nothing left- but Ali is telling, almost ordering Holmes to hit him.

 

I've still not seen the doc- will need to keep my eye on ESPN Classic more.

He hurled the "Uncle Tom" comment at many fighters- Terrell, Paterson, Liston etc all received this insult. It was part of the separatist propaganda he had going on with the Nation of Islam at the time, when he was really putting over in his early years of Nation membership, and at the time of the whole Vietnam struggle. In his tirades at the time Louis was dismissed as a past boxer who was not in his league- which is probably why he was targetted. Louis didnt like Ali- you can see him in the ring after Ali (then Cassius Clay) beats Liston in their first fight, looking pretty pissed off about the outcome.

 

I dont think there's anything wrong with your views to be honest- I can absolutely see where you're coming from. But for me Fraziers retorts I mentioned are equally disgusting, if not more so.

I love that Terrell fight- not the most exciting to watch but Ali is downright nasty as he toys with Terrell (who was a good boxer) like a cat does with a dead mouse.

 

Undoubtedly the build up for the Manila fight is out of line on Alis part- I'm not sure what his thinking was behind it- whether he wanted to crank it up a notch for their final match, whatever. But it wasnt right and he took it way too far.

Ali is certainly no saint, and I think that anyone who delves a bit deeper into the history of the man can figure this out. The Mark Kram book on Ali is actually one of the best ones to read on him- where he challenges a lot of the "Ali legend".

 

However, there's no doubt that his stance on Vietnam war, his charity work and some of his great victories deserve to completely overshadow this spat with Frazier. Frazier didnt exactly cover himself with glory with his comments on Ali in Atlanta in 96, nor his famous answerphone message where he proudly boasts of being responsible for Alis condition.

 

Frazier and Ali buried the hatchet throughout the 80s, and if you watch the "Facing Ali" documentary, Frazier is close to tears and seems genuinely torn up about Alis illness. Frazier has gone back and forth with his feelings on Ali over the years- his opinion at the time dependant on how he could make some money from their past rivalry.

 

Frazier was a great fighter, a warrior- but without the Ali fights he would just be a regular decent heavyweight that no-one other than keen boxing fans would really remember. After beating Ali in Madison Square Garden he did nothing of real note in the last 4,5 years of his career other than losing in Manila. A one dimensional fighter as well you could say- not a clever boxer. Who else would have gone toe to toe with George Foreman in Jamaica. It also cost him in Manila, where Ali had grossly underestimated him and he really should have won had he been a bit smarter in the final 5 or 6 rounds.

I don

Just read that Ron Lyle has died at the age of 70.

 

 

Really sad news, what a shit year for boxing. Joe Frazier, Henry Cooper, George Benton, Gary Mason, Butch Lewis and now Ron Lyle have all died this year just off the top of my head, and I know for sure I'm still forgetting some.

 

Lyle was a very good boxer and known as an extremely hard hitter. George Foreman once said "he hit me so hard it didn't even hurt".

 

Check out his fights with Ali, Earnie Shavers and deffo the Foreman fight. One of the most exciting, wild heavyweight brawls in boxing history.

 

Here's Lyle vs Foreman

 

RIP Ron Lyle

 

Always loved that Lyle-Foreman fight. The absolute definition of the term "slugfest".

 

Ran Ali close in their fight as well- looked to be ahead on points and Lyle corner loudly complained the stoppage came prematurely.

They were on about that Frazier film last night on Bunce's Boxing Hour. Looks like a must see.

 

That looks great. Although Ali always get's the plaudits, I always respected Frazier more for the way he dealt with Ali's racial treatment of him back in the day (a treatment that gets whitewashed today to be honest).

 

Some would say that karma is a real bitch though, as Frazier is still relatively healthy whilst Ali hasn't been for years.

 

You'll be glad to hear this isn't gonna be dominated by Ali. They were making the point on Buncey last night that although they will obviously have to cover the Ali rivalry, this film is about Joe Frazier first and foremost. It's great to see him getting some recognition still.

 

Looking forward to seeing the Frazier doc- seen a lot of his fights and undoubtedly a great boxer. But they really have to cover the Ali rivalry, because other than Fraziers win over Ali in 1971, you could argue that he didnt really beat any other truly great boxers, in a pretty golden era with regards to talent.

 

Not sure if he's all that classy either- certainly Ali was over the top in some of his insults to Frazier, and he was apologised on numerous occasions for doing so. But claiming the credit for Alis illness like it's some kind of badge of honour (with his son giggling the answer phone message on the subject on that Thrilla In Manila documentary) is pretty classless in my opinion.

Agreed on Frazier. I can deffo understand why he'd be bitter about it. Especially with the Uncle Tom/Gorilla comments and the death threats on his family. Ali certainly crossed the line there imo.

 

I remember I first saw the first Ali/Frazier fight not long before I saw the Thrilla in Manila doc and I was surprised that Ali/Dundee were acting like they got robbed. I know this goes on a lot in combat sports but I thought Frazier won that fight so convincingly that it was a ridiculous claim to make.

 

I'll need to dig out the DVD of the fight and watch again, but I thought the fight was pretty much still in the balance until the last round, Frazier slightly ahead, but Ali still in with a fighting chance. It's been a good few years since I watched it though, so as I say would have to dig it out again for another look.

 

Certainly think Frazier won the fight, and no way Ali was robbed as he and Dundee claimed. But similarly, Frazier moaned after the second fight (the 12 round eliminator which Ali clearly won by some distance).

 

I enjoyed the documentary but some of the claims that Frazier was level going into round 15 in Manila were pretty far fetched.

Ali was a good few rounds ahead after the 14th, and Frazier had nothing left. If he even had a remote chance of winning the fight then there's no way his corner would have pulled him out.

 

I agree that Ali was ahead going into the 15th of their third fight, but I have to disagree with you when you say that even if Frazier had a chance of winning then his corner would never of pulled him out. I believe that Eddie Futch really was highly concerned for Frazier's physical well-being in the future. Although I do think that the prospect of Frazier dying were a little far fetched, but not entirely ridiculous or unfounded.

 

I really do think that no matter what scenario was played out going into the 15th round, (both men level, Frazier slightly behind, even if Frazier was slightly ahead and just needed a strong finish), I still think Eddie Futch would've still pulled Joe out. I'm well aware that sometimes, stoppages such as this can be the product of a trainer wanting to save a fighter's credibility for another day or making their fighter look valiant in defeat, but I really feel that the great trainer saw enough risk to Frazier's health that he was willing to make such a potentially controversial decision. All of the ingredients that come together to leave a fighter permanently damaged or worse, were all there; sustained punishment to the head, exhaustion, dehydration and let's not forget the EXTREME heat. That's a bad combination, especially when Frazier was quite some time past his best aswell, and he was in all liklehood going to take some more punishment in the 15th. I don't think he would of took a shot and then hit the floor heavily and then get stretchered out, but I think he would of collapsed at some point after the last bell, or in the dressing room afterwards and who knows what would of happened then. It's worth remembering that as with practically all of Ali's fights back then, there was always a ridiculous ring invasion and chaos. If Frazier was to of taken a turn for the worst afterwards in the ring then he wouldn't of been getting an oxygen mask anytime soon, and that is the most critical element in such a situation as we know now certainly after the Michael Watson incident and subsequent law suit against the BBBofC. It's often claimed that Ali himself "collapsed", he didn't, he did hit the floor immediatley following the fight, but he was concious, just extremely tired and relieved as he himself took a lot of damage.

 

On a side note, the story about Ali going to Angelo Dundee after the 14th and telling him to "cut the gloves off, I've had enough", is somewhat disputed. Ali biographer Thomas Hauser said Ali did indeed verify the story to him, but it has been argued with quite some decent evidence that Ali did not want to "get in the way of a good story" and went along with it. There's a good article somewhere by Graham Houston on the subject, I'll see if I can find it later.

 

 

 

You make some really good points there, particularly regarding Frazier being at the end of his career and the ring invasion and circus surrounding Ali. I'm still not so sure though.

 

Doesnt Marvis Frazier say that either himself or one of Joes cornermen (cant remember which it is) was trying to relay to Futch that Ali was finished after round 14 and to get Joe on his feet for the last round because Ali may not be coming out? To me that may suggest that had Futch known this he may have put Frazier out for the final round, regardless of what shape he was in.

 

I dont think Ali collapsed post fight- not in the ring anyway- he was definitely exhausted but sat down because he didnt want to be paraded round the ring on peoples shoulders- he did this at the conclusion of the Foreman fight also.

 

We'll never know all the facts of course, but obviously its an interesting discussion none the less. Plus its given me the urge to dig out the documentary and watch the fights again.

Agreed on Frazier. I can deffo understand why he'd be bitter about it. Especially with the Uncle Tom/Gorilla comments and the death threats on his family. Ali certainly crossed the line there imo.

 

I remember I first saw the first Ali/Frazier fight not long before I saw the Thrilla in Manila doc and I was surprised that Ali/Dundee were acting like they got robbed. I know this goes on a lot in combat sports but I thought Frazier won that fight so convincingly that it was a ridiculous claim to make.

 

I'll need to dig out the DVD of the fight and watch again, but I thought the fight was pretty much still in the balance until the last round, Frazier slightly ahead, but Ali still in with a fighting chance. It's been a good few years since I watched it though, so as I say would have to dig it out again for another look.

 

Certainly think Frazier won the fight, and no way Ali was robbed as he and Dundee claimed. But similarly, Frazier moaned after the second fight (the 12 round eliminator which Ali clearly won by some distance).

 

I enjoyed the documentary but some of the claims that Frazier was level going into round 15 in Manila were pretty far fetched.

Ali was a good few rounds ahead after the 14th, and Frazier had nothing left. If he even had a remote chance of winning the fight then there's no way his corner would have pulled him out.

No Mayorga-Cotto on Sky Sports- gutted

Have to echo a previous post-

 

just watched an excellent little documentary called Muhammad and Larry, part of ESPN's 30 for 30 series.

 

Muhammad Ali is pretty much seen by everyone as the dude that fought Joe Frazier and George Foreman, all the famous footage of the man comes from around those times and it's that stuff that he's best remember for fight wise. This documentary focuses on a part of his career that's pretty much brusged under the carpet. It focuses on Ali's vicious beating at the hands of Larry Holmes.

 

Seriously, get it. Some of the stuff on here is a real eye opener...to see Ali in such horrible condition preparing to fight the best heavyweight in the world is horrible, wrong and ever so slightly scary. Shows how nasty and money hungry boxing can be, and shows a perfect example of how many fighters just can't let it go and quit.

 

Get it!

 

Sounds like it could be well worth a look. At one stage in the actual fight, Holmes is particularly reluctant to punish Ali in the corner, and you actually see Ali telling Holmes to hit him. A sad end to Alis career, but as you say how many boxers quit on top.

The fight wasnt a classic by any means, but it had its moments and I found it far more entertaining than Pacquiao-Clottey.

 

Mayweather made it quite clear in his post match interview- Pacquiao takes the regular blood and urine tests, Mayweather takes the fight.

Haye says his right hand was gubbed from the early rounds, and he may have broke it in the last round.

 

Not the best fight to watch but still had me hooked for the full 12 rounds. Last round was brilliant thought he had him.

 

Well chuffed he got the points win.

 

Who killed Eddie Royle, was it Grant Mitchell?

 

Its a tie between Wilmott Brown and Ethel Skinner for me.

 

Some people are spoiling the greatness of this thread unfortunately, or this would be heading straight to UKFF Gold.

Have we had Cybill Shepherd (49)?

 

 

An absolute beauty in her younger days, still looks good. Filthy too.

Prizefighter Heavyweights tonight I believe.

 

Looking forward to a few decent slug-fests.

One for the Euros, Klaas-Jan Huntelaar of Holland to finish top scorer in the tournament, 50-1 at Ladbrokes.Good outside bet, Huntelaar scores a silly amount of goals for Ajax and consistently gets among them for Holland as well. Should the Dutch get out of their group theres a good chance he might be up there.

Were trying desperatley to save up for a 4D scan, it means we'll have to save up for not only the actual scan itself, but also the ferry fare and petrol to get there :(If i can have one though i would like it at 30 weeks.

This is quality. Well worth the money, you get to see the baby on a huge monitor, really detailed. We got quite a few photos etc and they come out great, I still have one of the photos as my desktop wallpaper. If you're really crazy you can get a DVD of the baby roaming around but I felt that was a step too far. Good idea getting it a bit later when the baby has developed a bit more, I would suggest the later the better in this respect.They arent allowed to tell you the sex of the baby up here (NHS Forth Valley Policy- dont know what its like everywhere else), so we didnt find out our baby was a boy until the 4D scan.

See, I knew I had it.Thanks very much. Watched it over breakfast this morning. I just needed to see/hear that incredible pop for Austin again.

Also on the Best Of Raw Vol 1 and 2 DVD. Cracking pop, and a great Raw.

Can someone explain to me this whole "Fake Undertaker" thing from 1994 please?

After a casket match loss to Yokozuna, Undertaker propelled to the heavens (live on PPV- had to be seen to be believed) and vowed to return.WWF Magazine ran reports of various "sightings" of the Undertaker, which were blatantly the Undertaker super imposed on to various pictures. Im sure I recall the Undertaker balancing on a log while joggers ran past in one photo.Anyway, Ted Dibiase was now a heel manager, and claimed he now controlled The Undertaker, and he had "sold out to the money" This Undertaker fought babyfaces (Tatanka the one match I recall) and instead of being controlled by Paul Bearers urn, was controlled by a wad of cash in Ted Dibiases hand. Then Paul Bearer claimed he had found the genuine Taker, and challenged Dibiases Taker to a match.It was really just a way to give The Undertaker a high profile return, and of course the pop for his return was very good, but surely they could have booked something better. The match was about as worthless as they come, because as soon as Takers entrance was over, the match was academic (and rotten)

Foley always makes it so obvious that hes going to blade. See this bit and when he guest reffed a match between Nash - HBK in a Hell in a Cell match at Badd Blood.

The HHH-Nash HIAC one was indeed blatant. Was the first one I really noticed without actually looking for it.

I believe this is correct:WWF In Your House: Ground ZeroGoldust Vs Brian PillmanScott Putski Vs Brian ChristopherCrush Vs Faarooq Vs Savio VegaEl Torito Vs Ma Mini The Head Bangers Vs The Godwinns Vs The Road Warriors Vs Owen Hart and The British Bulldog - WWF Tag Team ChampionshipsBret Hart Vs The Patriot - WWF World ChampionshipThe Undertaker vs Shawn Michaels This post has been edited by GIB on Feb 16 2006, 19:10

Goldust-Pillman was one of my favourite feuds of 1997, even though Pillman had to carry Goldust and Marleena through the promos. Goldust getting Pillman DQed to keep the dress wearing stipulation going was pretty funny. Then the total shift of power from Goldust to Pillman after he revealed he was Dakotas father, then kept Marleena for 30 days. Cracking stuff.

QUOTE (jm29195 @ Feb 15 2006, 17:41) QUOTE  They were also in a main event 6-man tag against eachother on Raw. It was Austin with two mystery partners, being Dude Love and Undertaker against Bret, Owen and Bulldog, i think it was a Flag match and Pillman ran in at the end and won Hart Foundation the match. I'm sure there's one or two other occasions i'm unaware of also.  I don't suppose anyone knows whether or not thism atch was ever released on the old 'Best of Raw' tapes, as a matter of fact does anyone have the match listings from that series of tapes, can't seem to find one anywhere....  It was on Best of Raw 7.

Think theres a cracking Mankind-Michaels match on that tape as well, I believe Rick Rude interferes and Michaels wins with the superkick. Not as good as their Mind Games match, but comes pretty close.

For the Bret Hart-Yokozuna main event of Wrestlemania 9, were there any angles/face offs/clashes between the 2 wrestlers prior to the PPV?All I remember from the build up for this match is Bret Hart conducting an interview saying he knows he is the underdog but he is going to give it his best shot etc etc.In the main I recall most of that Wrestlemania build up to be the return of Hogan for the Hogan/Beefcake vs Money Inc matchBut surely there must have been some build up for the main event, and if not, that must be some kind of record.

Yes, she played Margaret Walker who was Terry's girlfriend, but Janine split them up.

Holy shit, thats right cheers.