ChrisJ

This VAT hike is a disgrace. Everybody knows that once it goes up, it rarely if ever comes back down again. The cost of living has gone up forever.

 

Please explain then how else you are going to pay for the Billions and Billions of debt that the countries in?

 

Eat more horses.

I'll have to disagree with this, and say that, had Hogan not gone back to the WWF in 84, Randy Savage would be the person we're talking about.

Or we'd be talking about Verne and son instead of Vinnie and Shane.

Suddenly the push of Shane McMahon doesn't seem SO bad...That WOULD be weird though - would the territories have stayed intact? Would we have had the NWA still promoting 'real wrestling', and not have had the killer angles of WCW in the late 90's? Would Eric Bischoff still have that god-awful smile, and would he ever turn heel and do what he does best?

I highly doubt it.The main thing that got Hogan over was his charisma, and Savage, while very charismatic himself, wasn't even close. Hogan also had the tremendous size going for him [which was unique at the time], which Savage didn't. Hogan also did the Real American gimmick, which fit the 80's to a T. Obviously Savage could have been given that gimmick too, but we'll never know. Savage was a much better in-ring worker than Hogan was, but the 80's WWF wasn't about that at all. And Hogan had the rub from the Rocky movie, which was a big deal as well. And re: Elizabeth; the only reason she was hired is that Greg Valentine's wife turned the position down.

Yeah, but look at Ricky Steamboat in the WWF - not a good interview, his wrestling skill was what kept him at the level he was at (near-ish the main event) for his spell in the WWF. Savage, as you say, could've been given the Real American gimmick and I think he'd have flown with it. The Rocky point is true. The charisma thing, I'd disagree with. Hogan, admittedly was stupidly charismatic, but Savage was much closer than you make out to Hogan.As for Elizabeth, I never knew that. You learn something every day

It probably had something to do with SuperAstros, which I believe they were trying to promote at the time.

I also don't think saying they 'could have just gotten another roided charismatic wrestler instead of Hogan' is accurate, as Hogan was way above that, especially in the charisma department. Not to mention having a cool name, that was easy for kids to get into.

I'll have to disagree with this, and say that, had Hogan not gone back to the WWF in 84, Randy Savage would be the person we're talking about. The marketing thing wouldn't have been Savage-a-mania, but we'd have had the same kind of interviews, just more of a growling thing. Plus, Savage had Liz, which gave a foil for the heel characters to play off during matches. He was ten times the worker Hogan was around that time, so that'd have been even better for us. Sure, you couldn't do the stupid fitness segments with Okerlund on TNT, but you could have Okerlund being shown some of the 'Macho Man's Moves' (

I swear I've seen Muchnick mentioned as a wrestler (albeit a lower one) on a couple of cards before he got into promoting. It could be me just getting mixed up with any one of the NWA founders, mind.

Lister will probably know but I can remember Da Meltz saying Muchnick never wrestled.If he did indeed have an in-ring career then I assume it was pretty unremarkable.

When I said it I'm going on my memory of writing a piece about the formation of the NWA, using Sex, Lies and Headlocks (yeah, I know, but it has some truth in it). I don't know why, but I seem to remember that Muchnick wrestling in St. Louis as well as promoting it. We need to get Lister here.

I can't believe Bob Backlund and Pedro Morales aren't on the list at all.

Backlund is debatable, but what reasons do you have for Morales ?

I personally don't think Backlund is debatable - he was a flop in comparison to the champions that preceeded and followed him. Perhaps it's the fact that he didn't sell anything of Flair's in the '93 Rumble that makes me hate him, but I never liked him, and never got the impression that he was a success. I'd put him in the same league as Morales - failed experiment.

No, but what I'm trying to get at here is that the ones that didn't do that style generally have the complete package, which is what the list is meant to be based on.

Not sure I understand what you mean. You talked about HHH having a punch/kick style, and Thesz & Rikidozan didn't. Where they the complete package, or the other way round ? I'm lost

I meant that Thesz (yeah, Rikidozan doesn't really) had both the wrestling skills, drawing power and decent charisma to make the complete package. HHH has charisma and had/has drawing power, but recently hasn't had the wrestling skills to back it up. Same can be said for Austin when his body broke down, etc. So Thesz = closest-to-complete out of the few people we mentioned, HHH = not, at least presently. 2000 HHH I would say did have everything that he needed.

There's a few people from the 70's and possibly a couple more from other times that outdrew Hart. Not all that's to blame on him, however; Hogan hit a boom period in wrestling, as did Austin/Rock. Andre was around in the 70's, along with Sammartino, which was a big time for the WWWF as they were starting to gain momentum. 2000 was unreal in popularity for the WWF, and HHH was on top of the pile then. Hart, however, was stuck with the remnants of the steriod trial.

I see this a lot coming from Hart supporters, but there's too many flaws in this theory for it to hold much ground. The only one I think got lucky being the right man when business was hot is HHH. Andre was a huge draw, no matter if business was up or down. Ditto Hogan, who created a boom period. As did Austin. Rock was kinda like HHH in that he rode on the success of Austin, but with his talent and charisma, I think he would have been huge anyway. Sammartino was always a big draw as well, because he made himself big, not because 'this was a good time for busines'. Hart wasn't a big draw because...he wasn't. Period. nWo caught fire during this time, and if the steroid/sex scandals were the sole reason for him not drawing, he would have drawn bigger than he did. Fact is, Hogan, Austin, Bruno etc MADE themselves great draws, whether business was up or down -- Hart couldn't.

I'm talking about 1993-1994 Hart, when I believe he really was stuck in a fairly hard place. He probably couldn't make himself a great draw, due to his apparent lack of charisma. I wouldn't class myself as a Hart supporter - I liked a lot of his matches, but don't have the same feeling that I do for others such as Flair, Race and London, for a modern-day equivalent.Now for the 'did they make themselves popular' argument...Andre: True.Hogan: Hogan, I think got lucky...kinda. While I won't disagree that Vince Jr. seemed to have planned Hulkamania for a while before it arrived, I think he was just in the right place at the right time. We could've had another charismatic, bulging wrestler in his place if the AWA thing hadn't fallen through when it did.Austin: While Austin's attitude was what made him what he is nowadays, I think he was lucky. McMahon wanted to push the envelope, Austin was just the person to do it. They could've possibly chosen someone else, so again, I'm 50/50 on reflection.Rock: I can live with your explanation of Rock making his own star, and that he would've made it eventually.Sammartino: I wasn't trying to say Sammartino did nothing to make himself the choice for champ - he had to have done something for McMahon to decide to use him as company leader in the 70's, and to go back to him when the Morales reign didn't draw as well as hoped. I'd say it's a mixture of both, really.HHH: He got lucky, but did work hard for his place too - I remember when he was this pudgy guy who was a DX flunky.

Consistently, he hasn't drawn as much as Kobashi, but that's a kind of justification to me.

Not sure if I agree with that. Piper was a MAJOR draw in Portland, Mid-Atlantic, California, WWF, and even later in WCW. I think he far outdrew Kobashi actually.

Ehhh...I'm wrong. I will say, however, that Portland/Mid-Atlantic, Cali. from the 70's and 80's is much different to AJ in the 90's. The draw in the 70's and 80's was much in Piper's favour, that being that people generally bought tickets to see the heel destroyed, which is the character we all love Piper for playing, whereas in Japan it seems a bit more for workrate and a good wrestling match; you just don't seem to have that kind of heat in Japan in recent years.Boy, did I get proved wrong...

Rikidozan was way more "punch-kick" than HHH actually.....

Fair enough.

Plus, a "punch-kick" style hardly hurt guys like Austin, Rock, Hansen or Kawada, did it ?

No, but what I'm trying to get at here is that the ones that didn't do that style generally have the complete package, which is what the list is meant to be based on.

That

With the exception of a couple of people I think it's a pretty damn good top 100. Not much respect for the modern era though. That's a bit of a shame.

Yeah there is respect for the modern era - they're mostly where they ought to be. Back at the turn of the century, wrestling was going through a boom that I would say (from my average knowledge of the era) was bigger than that of the 90's. They were drawing better, more consistently, and kept doing so through the advent of television and up until the early 00's.Plus, they were better wrestlers. I'd much rather see Rikidozan/Thesz than HHH/whoever, because that's wrestling, not kick-punch-kick.