Boxing Thread

[David]

Race was used to sell fights a lot. Larry Holmes vs Gerry Cooney was built on black vs white and it became huge. Hopkins vs Trinidad is another. It's an ugly, cheap way to sell a fight but it goes on.

 

I do believe Ali started off trying to hype the fight but as he often did, went too far and (understandably on Frazier's end) it all became very heated. I don't agree with how Ali went about that whole thing and I'm defo not making excuses to uphold some image. I've always preferred Frazier anyway. But I do think, at first anyway, he was just trying to sell the fight. The whole thing got bigger than anyone could've guessed.

 

I agree with Carbomb. It's easy for us to talk now, back then it was a rocky existence for black people in America. And different people dealt with that in differently. I've never been a victim of racism but my ex was and my first instinct was to want to react violently. And that was an isolated incident. Imagine what it was like as a black man in the south of the US in the 60s?

The thing is, Frazier knew all too well what that was like. As I mentioned, he moved to Philly to get away from racial tension in the south.

 

I'd have respected Ali a bit more if he had apologised personally to Frazier back when it mattered, but he didn't.

[jimufctna24]

An interesting point was made by boxing historian Randy Roberts, who said at the time of Joe's passing

[David]

If you watch Chuck Wepner ESPN documentary, Ali accused Wepner of calling him a nigger on a talk show. Wepner said Ali did it solely to hype the fight and even asked Wepner to use racist slurs to him in public.

As many others have said, the US was a powderkeg during that era. For Ali to use such tactics to sell a fight is fucking ridiculous. I actually think that he's went down further in my view after finding out that he was using such a serious matter to sell a fucking boxing bout and earn himself more money.

[Loki]

 

You don't hear many sportsmen talk like this.

[wandshogun09]

"Tarzan was the king of the jungle in Africa - he was white"

 

"We don't serve negros - I said good 'cos I don't eat 'em"

 

I love that interview. That was his first appearance on Parky. The full thing's on Youtube somewhere. His second appearance on that show is worth watching as well, Ali goes nuts at Parky.

 

"You can't beat me physically OR mentally. You really are a joke".

 

Poor Parky got verbally rawfucked on that one. Nothing like the playful banter in that clip of the first appearance.

[Egg Shen]

Looks like Devon Alexander is pulling a fast one on Kell Brook and is actually gonna sign on to fight Mayweather...cant say i blame him.

[Joe_the_Lion]

While Davids view is somewhat extreme it is also nearer the truth than most people are comftable with. Ali is held up high. Therefore he must be judged accordingly. He fails. Forget Frazier. Its Ernie Terrell you should be looking to. A man butchered for using a 'slave name'. He was proud to use his own 'slave name' and thought he was promoting a fight. If only Ali or a member if his crew gad told him it wasnt a work.......but they didnt and Ali instead picked him aparty like a fly

[BrianR]

I love that Terrell fight- not the most exciting to watch but Ali is downright nasty as he toys with Terrell (who was a good boxer) like a cat does with a dead mouse.

 

Undoubtedly the build up for the Manila fight is out of line on Alis part- I'm not sure what his thinking was behind it- whether he wanted to crank it up a notch for their final match, whatever. But it wasnt right and he took it way too far.

Ali is certainly no saint, and I think that anyone who delves a bit deeper into the history of the man can figure this out. The Mark Kram book on Ali is actually one of the best ones to read on him- where he challenges a lot of the "Ali legend".

 

However, there's no doubt that his stance on Vietnam war, his charity work and some of his great victories deserve to completely overshadow this spat with Frazier. Frazier didnt exactly cover himself with glory with his comments on Ali in Atlanta in 96, nor his famous answerphone message where he proudly boasts of being responsible for Alis condition.

 

Frazier and Ali buried the hatchet throughout the 80s, and if you watch the "Facing Ali" documentary, Frazier is close to tears and seems genuinely torn up about Alis illness. Frazier has gone back and forth with his feelings on Ali over the years- his opinion at the time dependant on how he could make some money from their past rivalry.

 

Frazier was a great fighter, a warrior- but without the Ali fights he would just be a regular decent heavyweight that no-one other than keen boxing fans would really remember. After beating Ali in Madison Square Garden he did nothing of real note in the last 4,5 years of his career other than losing in Manila. A one dimensional fighter as well you could say- not a clever boxer. Who else would have gone toe to toe with George Foreman in Jamaica. It also cost him in Manila, where Ali had grossly underestimated him and he really should have won had he been a bit smarter in the final 5 or 6 rounds.

Edited February 7, 2013 by BrianR

[David]

If you read my opinions on Ali I usually refer to his nasty personal traits as a thing of the past, as he undoubtedly smartened up with age. I also believe he had a lot of influential people in his ear back in the day, which led to him being given some bad advice and basically being used to further certain individuals agendas.

 

I've never argued against his political stance on anything (I'm not quite sure why Carbomb decided to give me the whole racial history speech earlier), and understand that his views during the 70's, which would without doubt be considered racist today were a product of the times.

 

I simply don't respect a person who has that much sway and clout going after individuals who don't deserve it, which is what Ali did with Frazier and others. It's a shame, as he did do a lot of good during his life, but the way he treated certain individuals , such as Frazier, will always sour my (and countless others) opinions of him. In addition he could have rectified the situation by being a bigger man and publicly apologising to Frazier and his family, admitting he was wrong and that he was only doing it to sell the fight (which I don't believe is the only the reason he did it). He didn't do that, which is something he'll have to live with.

 

Funnily enough, Ali hurled the "Uncle Tom" insults at another fighter, and the one who I consider to be the greatest heavyweight of all time, Joe Louis. Yet another real gentleman of the sport, and someone who dealt with unbelievable racism with great dignity and respect.

[BrianR]

He hurled the "Uncle Tom" comment at many fighters- Terrell, Paterson, Liston etc all received this insult. It was part of the separatist propaganda he had going on with the Nation of Islam at the time, when he was really putting over in his early years of Nation membership, and at the time of the whole Vietnam struggle. In his tirades at the time Louis was dismissed as a past boxer who was not in his league- which is probably why he was targetted. Louis didnt like Ali- you can see him in the ring after Ali (then Cassius Clay) beats Liston in their first fight, looking pretty pissed off about the outcome.

 

I dont think there's anything wrong with your views to be honest- I can absolutely see where you're coming from. But for me Fraziers retorts I mentioned are equally disgusting, if not more so.

[Carbomb]

While Davids view is somewhat extreme it is also nearer the truth than most people are comftable with. Ali is held up high. Therefore he must be judged accordingly. He fails.

 

I don't accept that premise at all. There are plenty of figures who are held up high who, on closer examination, fall short.

 

Also, on a personal note, if you're back, then welcome back - I always thought it was a shame you left.

 

I'm not quite sure why Carbomb decided to give me the whole racial history speech earlier

 

You really don't get why?

 

It's very simple - it's because it's essential to understanding a fundamental and critical aspect that was in essence more important than his boxing. This is going to be controversial, but quite frankly, you came out with all the usual complaints that white people do when discussing Ali - he was a black man who committed the cardinal sin of not only not being one of those "nice" black activists who only focused on his own people, but actually standing up and hurling the hypocrisy of the white establishment back in its face. It didn't like that, so spent years focusing on his faults to denigrate his character, while simultaneously sucking up to him to make money off him.

 

Your mentioning of guys like Frazier, Louis et al "behaving with dignity" quite honestly just reads to me personally as "they didn't make any trouble". It's something I've heard many times over the years. Well, sorry, but in an era as charged as the 60s, a black man who wasn't seen to be doing his bit, especially one in the public eye, was always going to attract negative attention from the more militant black community, and Ali was always going to be the most vocal representative of that. And as I say, it's all very well for some white person living in 2013 to say all the things you have - you couldn't be much further away from the whole matter if you tried. Whilst obviously that isn't your fault, talking about black people "rising above the hate" and "behaving with dignity" shows such a complete lack of insight, as far as I'm concerned, which is why I've been arguing with you.

 

Now, no-one's denying that Ali wasn't a saint, but I'd be arguing less vehemently if there were just as prominent media and cultural narratives highlighting other people's rather hideous shortcomings rather than simply glossing them over or trivialising them (Winston Churchill, John Lennon, Elvis Presley, Jackie Wilson, Charlton Heston to name a few). In short: why isn't Ali treated the same way as other figures? Why don't those others draw the same willingness from the media (and consequently normal people influenced by it) to attack their faults as Ali does? I personally am pretty sure I know the answer.

 

NB: In case this post is misunderstood, I'm not saying you're a racist, David. As you know, I agree with you on a lot of political subjects. But race is always going to be a very sore topic for me, and I will not and cannot let your comments go without debate.

 

 

EDIT: The Ernie Terrell point (and it also applies to Floyd Patterson as well) - you're all ignoring the fact that these guys insisted on calling Ali by his old name, which he had very publicly and clearly declared as being offensive to him on the basis of it being derived from the era of slavery. He's no more guilty of being nasty to them than they were to him.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Carbomb

[David]

[it's very simple - it's because it's essential to understanding a fundamental and critical aspect that was in essence more important than his boxing. This is going to be controversial, but quite frankly, you came out with all the usual complaints that white people do when discussing Ali - he was a black man who committed the cardinal sin of not only not being one of those "nice" black activists who only focused on his own people, but actually standing up and hurling the hypocrisy of the white establishment back in its face.

Hold on, where did I mention Ali being wrong in highlighting what white America was all about in that era? If you can find me a quote of where I said anything along those lines I'll be more than happy to hold my hands up and apologise.

 

I stressed that I believe Ali was correct to stand up against the wave of nationalistic drivel we were seeing from the US during the Vietnam war, and that he took a stand against many negative aspects of US culture at the time.

 

Your mentioning of guys like Frazier, Louis et al "behaving with dignity" quite honestly just reads to me personally as "they didn't make any trouble".

Well, you're reading it wrong then I'm afraid. What the likes of Louis & Frazier did was show that they were on a completely different level to the racist element of the day. They stood tall above all of that, and didn't have to lower themselves to the gutter and trade racial slurs and insults. I know it's not the done thing, but it's worth acknowledging that not all white America was "the devil" in that era. There certainly was a decent section of society that was, but to paint everyone with that brush is a bit off. Ali did that, whilst the likes of Frazier & Louis didn't.

 

It's something I've heard many times over the years. Well, sorry, but in an era as charged as the 60s, a black man who wasn't seen to be doing his bit, especially one in the public eye, was always going to attract negative attention from the more militant black community, and Ali was always going to be the most vocal representative of that.

By "doing his bit" I assume you mean ensuring that the segregation and "us and them" attitude continued, yeah? When you speak of the more militant black community I also assume you're talking about the likes of the Nation Of Islam? Ali was refused entry to the Nation when he first applied, wasn't he? The honorable Elijah Muhammad swiftly changed his mind after Ali beat Sonny Liston for the world title, didn't he? Why was that? Did the win make Ali a blacker, prouder man all of a sudden? Why was he refused entry to the group initially on the basis of his profession only for this barricade to all but disappear after he won the strap?

 

Like most of these extreme right-wing groups (on BOTH sides of the racial divide), the NOI and others of their ilk weren't interested in seeing blacks in America being granted the same rights and respect as their white counterparts, they were interested in generating money and in brainwashing and using impressionable young men like Cassius Clay.

 

These groups (and by association Ali himself) attacked fellow black men like Frazier and Louis because they wouldn't buy into their racist shite. They weren't interested in maintaining the status quo of segregation and "us vs them" which kept groups like the Nation relevant and the likes of Elijah Muhammad with cash in his pocket. Much easier to simply brand them traitors to the cause and turn their followers against them.

 

In short, whilst the more militant black community at the time definately had more reason to feel victimised than their white counterparts, neither side had any interest in putting an end to the status quo. Both sides of that divide needed the segregation and hatred to remain relevant. High profile black men like Frazier and Louis were a threat to that.

 

And as I say, it's all very well for some white person living in 2013 to say all the things you have - you couldn't be much further away from the whole matter if you tried. Whilst obviously that isn't your fault, talking about black people "rising above the hate" and "behaving with dignity" shows such a complete lack of insight, as far as I'm concerned, which is why I've been arguing with you.

I'm not sitting here at my computer saying that this is what black people should have done, I'm saying that this is exactly what the likes of Frazier and Louis did. For the likes of Ali and his puppetmasters of the time to brand either of them less of a proud black man simply because they didn't buy into their extreme views shows the level that groups like the NOI were operating at.

 

Now, no-one's denying that Ali wasn't a saint, but I'd be arguing less vehemently if there were just as prominent media and cultural narratives highlighting other people's rather hideous shortcomings rather than simply glossing them over or trivialising them (Winston Churchill, John Lennon, Elvis Presley, Jackie Wilson, Charlton Heston to name a few). In short: why isn't Ali treated the same way as other figures? Why don't those others draw the same willingness from the media (and consequently normal people influenced by it) to attack their faults as Ali does? I personally am pretty sure I know the answer.

I'm not talking about how Ali is regarded in popular society, I'm simply giving my own opinion of the matter as a keen student of politics, boxing & history. You mention the likes of Elvis, Churchill and Charlton Heston there. Start a thread on them and you'd find out that I don't buy into the wholesome image that is portrayed of them either, especially when it comes to Winston Churchill.

[Carbomb]

Don't want to drag this on much longer, as I think you'll agree we reached the impasse long ago. Will just address this point:

 

 

Your mentioning of guys like Frazier, Louis et al "behaving with dignity" quite honestly just reads to me personally as "they didn't make any trouble".

Well, you're reading it wrong then I'm afraid. What the likes of Louis & Frazier did was show that they were on a completely different level to the racist element of the day. They stood tall above all of that, and didn't have to lower themselves to the gutter and trade racial slurs and insults. I know it's not the done thing, but it's worth acknowledging that not all white America was "the devil" in that era. There certainly was a decent section of society that was, but to paint everyone with that brush is a bit off. Ali did that, whilst the likes of Frazier & Louis didn't.

 

It's something I've heard many times over the years. Well, sorry, but in an era as charged as the 60s, a black man who wasn't seen to be doing his bit, especially one in the public eye, was always going to attract negative attention from the more militant black community, and Ali was always going to be the most vocal representative of that.

By "doing his bit" I assume you mean ensuring that the segregation and "us and them" attitude continued, yeah? When you speak of the more militant black community I also assume you're talking about the likes of the Nation Of Islam? Ali was refused entry to the Nation when he first applied, wasn't he? The honorable Elijah Muhammad swiftly changed his mind after Ali beat Sonny Liston for the world title, didn't he? Why was that? Did the win make Ali a blacker, prouder man all of a sudden? Why was he refused entry to the group initially on the basis of his profession only for this barricade to all but disappear after he won the strap?

 

Like most of these extreme right-wing groups (on BOTH sides of the racial divide), the NOI and others of their ilk weren't interested in seeing blacks in America being granted the same rights and respect as their white counterparts, they were interested in generating money and in brainwashing and using impressionable young men like Cassius Clay.

 

These groups (and by association Ali himself) attacked fellow black men like Frazier and Louis because they wouldn't buy into their racist shite. They weren't interested in maintaining the status quo of segregation and "us vs them" which kept groups like the Nation relevant and the likes of Elijah Muhammad with cash in his pocket. Much easier to simply brand them traitors to the cause and turn their followers against them.

 

In short, whilst the more militant black community at the time definately had more reason to feel victimised than their white counterparts, neither side had any interest in putting an end to the status quo. Both sides of that divide needed the segregation and hatred to remain relevant. High profile black men like Frazier and Louis were a threat to that.

 

No, that's not what I meant. You didn't have to have joined the NOI to have been doing your bit back then. It's not about whether Frazier, Louis or Liston slung insults or not, it's about the fact that they didn't say anything or speak up in any meaningful manner during the height of the Civil Rights movement. Frazier moving out of Philly is not a statement, it's just a guy moving away from somewhere he doesn't feel safe. If you didn't speak up during a period when black people were fighting to be treated as equals, you were, rightly or wrongly, seen as a collaborator.

 

To put this in context, Ali got on very well with Martin Luther King. If he was so keen on attacking people who didn't buy into the NOI, he would've said something about him. The fact is the large majority of black boxers during that period didn't do anything to contribute to the movement in any meaningful way.

 

I personally would rather Ali hadn't joined the NOI; as a mixed person, I cannot support their message of segregation. But what I won't do is simply dismiss it without appreciating why and how it came about, mainly because to do so is to ignore the lessons of history.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Carbomb

[Egg Shen]

All Blacks rugby international Sonny Bill Williams fights Francois Botha tomorrow night down under, bit of a freak show element to it but im interested to see how it turns out. Botha's claimed that his amateur boxing son would defeat Bill easily in the build up, i wanna see it.

 

[Fox Piss]

Isn't Sonny like New Zealand H/W champion?

 

Botha looks like Hogan without the needle.

 

I'm not buying the May-Alexandra fight. Devon brings about 0% to the buyrate or attendance. Floyd got to be fighting a Mexican come May.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Fox Piss