Paid Members JNLister Posted December 16, 2003 Paid Members Share Posted December 16, 2003 The show started promptly at 8pm, the first bout was over at 8.35pm because of all the stalling.More stalling = longer matches = fewer matches per show = fewer wrestlers to pay = more money left in Brian Dixon's pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest overbooked Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 You can't seem to cope with any promotion that deals with wrestling matches as opposed to making everything just a version of televison wrestling. So, what's with the light show and American voice proclaiming "All Star wrestling- the premier sports entertainment company in Europe" at the start of All-Star cards lately?The problem, in my view, with All-Star is not that its unadulterated crap. If it was, I doubt anyone would waste time posting about it.It's more the fact that, despite having a great infrastructure in place and the ability to put on good shows, time and again it fails to live up to its potential, preferring to plod along until its fanbase dies out, either through boredom, or old age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guvnor Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 More stalling = longer matches = fewer matches per show = fewer wrestlers to pay = more money left in Brian Dixon's pocket. In my experience, stalling = crowd work = more reaction than straight wrestling on its own = job done better (i.e. entertaining crowd, the job of a pro-wrestler)There are exceptions, of course, where there is too much stalling as well, which is bad for the match, but a fine balance of wrestling and stalling / crowd work normally does the trick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherry Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Normally I'd agree with u but this was too much stalling so by the time they started wrestling the majority of the crowd was bored of telling them to get on with it!~Cherry, xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CracktonMoj Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I do have to agree about the constant stalling at All Star shows. I went to the last one in Telford and the first bout stands out in my mind not for the wrestling but for the amount of time it took for Kid Kool and the Brooklyn Brawler to start wrestling! First off the Brawler took about five minutes to stop taunting the crowd and let Kid kool be introduced which I suppose would have been fair enough if Kid Kool hadn't have taken another five minutes to get to the ring. The the Brawler gets out the ring and walks round it for what seemed like ages after the bell had rung and the ref didn't even look like he'd heard of the ten count let alone when to use it!So, a tribute, lots of stalling, and I assume a decent match if you cut all the bullshit out, yes? That's fair enough (although the tribute thing is dodgy) if it's only one match on a card, but routinely at Colston, out of a four match card, three of them will follow that pattern. Once, all five matches (yes there was five matches and I was shocked) had ten minutes of stalling at the beginning, and it got to a point where even the Colston idiots weren't reacting any more.People tend to not slag off the FWA, just point out the things that the odd FWA fan might be critical about one promotion can be found everywhere including on an FWA show.When have the FWA advertised a dead wrestler as appearing on their shows? Or used a tribute? Or had the ring announcer say 'At the next show, these people WILL DEFINITELY be appearing', and then not let anybody know that the people aren't working the show until they're all in the building? Or sold fake WWE merchandise on their merchandise tables?If you tend to follow these threads, it usually starts with me giving some news about a show in the UK that isn't promoted by one of you guys and Moj just comed on and slags it off.Wrong. Firstly, the only shows you give 'news' about, are All Star shows, in Colston and Croydon. And they're just the press releases. I like to point out that just because you say these wrestlers are appearing, doesn't mean they are, because All Star tend to be a bit untrue in that regard. If you think I'm going to let you get away with shilling All Star shows with lies on this forum, you're sadly mistaken. Take it to Classifieds, where Moorish or The Adder can make that decision, or to the All Star Fan Forum, which'd be fair enough.As for Moj, you constantly complain that the bill isn't as advertised but half the time you, and Seph, quote things that weren't billed anyway.No we don't... as far as I know, we quote from either the posters, what you post on this forum, and what the ring announcer announced at the previous show. Seph might even phone the box office... Most of the time, they're three seperate cards, and then you get a fourth on the night.You go to most 'house shows' in the world these days and you're not sure what the card is. You didn't know what most of the card was the last time the FWA went to Newport I recall.Fair enough. But what All Star do is instead of saying something like 'There will be Robbie Brookside v PN News as the main event, and other exciting matches', they say 'Main event is Robbie Brookside V PN News, plus this match, this match, and that other match', when only the first match is confirmed, and not even the other wrestlers, never mind the actual matches, are confirmed yet. It's dishonest, even if I can't explain it in a way that makes sense...The FWA's second Newport show - the three way between Doug, Tighe and Barker was confirmed and advertised online. So was the tag title match between Alex-Nikita/Family. Mark Sloan, Jody Fleisch and I *think* Jack Xavier as well were all confirmed as appearing, and I think even Fleisch/Xavier was confirmed as a match, but I'm not 100% on that. In the end, all those matches did happen, plus we got Sloan (who was advertised) wrestling Aviv Maayan~ in a match that needs to be released on a tape RIGHT FUCKING NOW, plus Baxter Burridge/Stixx, which nobody in the arena liked because Baxter rules as a heel (for All Star, how about that) but sucks as a face (in the FWA, do you see the point I'm making here?) and tried too hard to endear himself to fans and kept stomping the fucking mat and then flubbed up an armdrag so people turned on him because Newport hates people acting the cunt (which may be the reason me and Whizzkid don't get on, to be fair) and cheered Stixx throughout the match with chants of "Let's Go Black Pants".And in any case, 450 people decided to plunk their money down for Newport, even if, as you said 'nobody knew what most of the card would be'. This was probably based on the Breakout Tour, in which everybody advertised turned up, so when people saw the posters for the next show (which had Doug, Alex, Nikita, Jody on), they remembered the great show last time, and came along, with extra friends. Now that they've put on two good shows with no false advertising, when the third show happens, people will see the poster, remember the wrestlers from before, and check out the others that they might not have seen (Duke of Danger, Burchill), because if the poster says they're appearing, then they're appearing.This would be an ideal time to advertise lots of people who aren't appearing. People trust you now, so say you're bringing over a half dozen Americans, and after the thousand people have paid their money, my daughter can let people know they're not here without giving a reason why so we can't be caught out as lying, and they can watch my son-in-law and Robbie Brookside and Spiderman wrestle each other, because they'll work for twenty quid plus petrol (if I decide to give it to them), and people are stupid, and it's only kids entertainment after all. I've got a gross of Kane masks in my lockup, let's put Mason under the hood again...Quiet you Where was I... oh yes, more hilarity:You always get a good show and that's why there are so many regulars who never miss a show.The 'good show' thing is debateable, but I guess if you've been watching Dixon constantly, tributes and stalling make a 'good show' in your eyes. But the regulars are dwindling, hence the move to a smaller venue. And Croydon's attendance has been reported as around the hundred mark by people recently - although I've never been so can't confirm, I'd be surprised if that was incorrect, assuming the same booking pattern (total randomness) applies there too. Lister, how's Stoke doing?The fact that a great wrestler suddenly doesn't become so great when they are appearing for All Star tells us more about your sad tiresome bias than anything else.Or it tells you something about All Star's booking, which is all limited and generic with odd exceptions. As Seph keeps bringing up but you never respond to.You can't seem to cope with any promotion that deals with wrestling matches as opposed to making everything just a version of televison wrestling.Hang on. Dixon either harks back to World of Sport (this television wrestling that you hate) or uses warmed over WWE gimmicks because they're popular (rumbles, ladder matches, tributes - again TV wrestling). Fuck, their POSTERS even say 'As seen on TV!' on them! Not to mention 'American Wrestling' which makes a mockery of the 'We're British and proud of it, we are, unlike others who ape American products' thing you try to project... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhizzKid Posted December 16, 2003 Author Share Posted December 16, 2003 (edited) So, a tribute, lots of stalling, and I assume a decent match if you cut all the bullshit out, yes? That's fair enough (although the tribute thing is dodgy) if it's only one match on a card, but routinely at Colston, out of a four match card, three of them will follow that pattern. Performance is part of the wrestling and what you call stalling is what most people call working a crowd. Don't FWA have loads of microphone work there matches, it's no different to that. As for tributes - you must spend most of the time in the bar at the Colst because Spidermask is the only tribute we have had in the past year. The odd tribute is part of a varied show. Not my cup of tea but the again neither are wrestlers who base their matches around jumping off a balcony.When have the FWA advertised a dead wrestler as appearing on their shows? Or used a tribute? Or had the ring announcer say 'At the next show, these people WILL DEFINITELY be appearing', and then not let anybody know that the people aren't working the show until they're all in the building? Or sold fake WWE merchandise on their merchandise tables?All Star never advertised a dead wrestler as has been discussed so many times before. FWA have advertised wrestlers who have no showed or cancelled and Corino suggested that he never agreed to appearing at one of their shows. No the FWA don't sell fake WWE merchandise but there's plenty of stalls selling various bootleg tapes from what I've seen.Some people are interested in the UK scene, so I just put up info on their shows that I hear about. You seem to have problems or too much time on your hands. No we don't... as far as I know, we quote from either the posters, what you post on this forum, and what the ring announcer announced at the previous show. Seph might even phone the box office... Most of the time, they're three seperate cards, and then you get a fourth on the night.Well, often you don't pay attention. You say things were billed or announced when they weren't and say people no showed more times than they did. I guess that you just don't pay attention but it looks as if you're lying. Granted some people no show or can't make the show but there are few wrestlers with name value in the UK, so as long as the show is good, which it is, that's all that matters.As for the stuff about Newport shows, from what I hear the crowds weren't any bigger than Bristol gets every three or four weeks. As for you saying how great the Newport audience are - please! I'm not into that we're better than you stuff. I'm sure that the Newport shows were good but so are the other shows produced around the country by other promoters. We have a wealth of talent working so hard around the country and promoters putting on strong shows at all of the venues. The fact that you don't appreciate them is so sad and tiresome. Just stick to your FWA fanclub, watch your FWA videos and wait for the FWA to return to Newport, while the remainder of us go out and enjoy a wider variety of wrestling available in this country. Edited December 16, 2003 by WhizzKid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivestarflash Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Quite funny how little you people slagging away actually know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members seph Posted December 17, 2003 Paid Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 (edited) You can harass me for being picky about the little details, but the little details MATTER to people who pay money and expect a certain match after weeks of anticipation. Dixon is *extremely* lazy and shoddy with keeping the fans up to the news.What amuses me is that you and Moj can pick holes in All Star shows but you can do the same to any promotion if you feel the need. Anything levelled at All Star can be levelled at most other promotions. It amazes me that in your words you are "picky about small details" when you are often wrong abou small details yourself. Doug Williams Vrs Rob Brookside was never billed for the last Bristol show, it was the Brookside Vrs P N, so when you feel that small detail is so important and don't even know the details yourself (a bit like saying Pete Collins has never retired before) it shows that these details you are so picky about matter not. All Star put on a good show month after month and that's what a good wrestling fan wants.As for moving to a new venue - read the local press Seph. The council say wrestling isn't a part of the entertainment they want at the Colston Hall and the lack of support the venue has given wrestling by not putting up publicity material, not including it on venue publicity suggests that they have tried to kill off wrestling at the venue over the past couple of years. That together with ticket prices being put up and the apparent down period in wrestling at the moment explains why 200 to 300 fans turn up at the Colston Hall now as opposed to double that in the recent past. Still that's a very good figure for a wrestling venue to get each month and despite what you say, the FWA get a similar figure at there Broxbourne shows these days. It's very sad that wrestling is ending at the Colston Hall. It was the first place I saw live wrestling and have been a regular since an early age. The standard of wrestling has always been high and even now, with no support from the venue, it outdraws most shows in this country. The fans are loyal and passionate and having travelled to a lot of UK venues, the Colston Hall has one of the great crowd atmospheres with people really into the action. OK, I got Robbie's original opponent wrong. Blow me. THE POINT IS:1. They advertised one particular title match. FACT.2. They phantomed it at least 24hr before it was supposed to happen.(for "phantomed", read "had a title change without the fans who are MEANT TO KNOW about it knowing about it.") FACT.3. They did not make any effort to let people know of the title change until AFTER they had paid their money to get in. FACT.4. They did not even kayfabe a reason why a wrestler hither-to-the-change wasn't even PART OF THE TITLE PICTURE obtained a title shot and won the title. Nitpicking about continuity aside, FACT.5. They did not hype the sudden inexplicable change of the MOST IMPORTANT TITLE IN THE COMPANY in any way. FACT. Therefore it was a foregone conclusion that the deposed champion would regain it that night. LOGICAL THINKING.6. From the phantom switch nobody got put over apart from Robbie Brookside. The 'upstart' Thunder, who -by my own admission- has improved immensely since the last time I saw him, gets no rub whatsoever by his flirtation with the MOST IMPORTANT TITLE IN THE COMPANY. FACT, and also a crime the WWE has commited (read: Chris Jericho, WWF Undisputed Champion Dec 2001-Mar 2002)7. The possible (read: may not be, but can be) reason for the phantom switch, Avalanche's babyface status, is nonsensical because it is possible to play Ave as a heel (read: UK vs USA matches. Something of a regular ASW occurence.) FACT.8. The same criteria of flaws that I have stated can be levelled at other promotions, FACT as you have proven. All Star, however, seems to commit these errors more than any other promotion regardless of public profile, capability and . FACT. All Star makes less effort to stop these errors happening, or simply makes less effort to inform their fans that these things *can* happen. FACT, by Dixon's own admission regarding the Alex Shane/Nikita debacle - he was aware that they would not show and just could not be bothered to change the posters.9. If what I say about Dixon's laziness and shoddiness is true, then when we attend the final Colston Show in about 42hrs time, we shall recieve no announcement, no flyers or no posters directing fans as to -take note- HOW TO GET TO THE WHITCHURCH SPORTS HALL. Not "where is it happening", HOW TO GET THERE. Which is what I, myself, asked Dixon at the start of the previous Colston show- "Could you let everyone know how to get to the Sports Hall?". Not "Where is it?", but "How can I get there" is the question to ask. And if Dixon does not answer every person who asks, not only does he prove hisslackness but he also stands the risk of losing what fans in Bristol he still has.10. You may be right about the Council not wanting wrestling at the Hall anymore. As a matter of goddamn fact I am willing to say that you ARE right. Why? Bristol City council has, in recent years:*offered a complete monopoly of the city's bus services to Firstbus who have since privatized what little competition was left, and sent the overall quality of the service into a downward spiral. The bus service was, earlier this year, officially voted the worst in the country, and the people who use it pay twice (or in some cases, more than) expected to do so.*destroyed the beautiful greenery on the centre and replaced it with some rather grotesque fountains & sculptures, which are apparent on the way to the Hall*is considering building a 30,000-seater football/sports stadium WELL outside the City limits and wants to transfer both the city's football teams (who to say are not exactly friendly would be a strong contender for Understatement Of The Year) there, who on their strongest regular-season-days cannot even APPROACH 30,000 COMBINED.*have committed several crimes against its own people that I do not know about, nor am I willing to find out right now.Bleak picture nonetheless, I dare say that Dixon could do a better job on the Bristol City Council. But I digress.--------------------I'd certainly say points 3 to 8 add up to "shoddy and lazy", don't you? Now...Have I committed a crime by doing one of the things I have criticised ASW of doing? YES, but name one person who has never -even accidentally- been a hypocrite. Whether you include yourself in your answer is irrelevant.And for the record, I fucking well hope I am wrong about point #9. Seriously.EDIT: and fivestar flash, if you don't care to enlighten us on what we are "supposed" to know by your insinuation, do the gentlemanly thing and butt out. Here we actually try to JUSTIFY our assertions. Edited December 17, 2003 by sephjnr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted December 17, 2003 Paid Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 I dare say that Dixon could do a better job on the Bristol City Council.So. Many. Punchlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDNWrestling Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Wow this thread is still going :crazy:My 2 cents. I've been to the last 6 Croydon shows and I've only enjoyed a handful of things. The 3 matches that I enjoyed were:-Dragon vs Doug vs Jonny- ladder MatchFwa match: Alex/Nikita vs FamilySteve Grey vs Jonny StormThat's all I considered value for money, they have been a lot of times where I have felt pissed off for the lack of terms. Announced wrestlers not showing, too much stalling has made me resent it at times.Croydon's attendance has gone down A LOT over the past 6 months, I would say from 250 max it's gone down to just over a 100.I will be cutting down to the number of Allstar shows I go to from now on and only going if there is a match I want to see, although I will have to check if those wrestlers have been on Allstar shows the week before. Sometimes a wrestler can't make it to the show for geuine reasons but it's when it happens at every show you get annoyed and loose confidence in the company. When a lot of people loose confidence the firm has problems.I think for next year Allstar should change thier approch if they want to gain new or keep existing fans. I really hope the advertised Americans (David Flair, Gangrel and Luna) do make it to the shows and I would go depending on the main event (although I may not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex shane's selling ability Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 To be honest, I dont think that most people have a problem with Moj's opinions because at least some of them are marginally valid, but with the fact he trundles them out everytime there is a thread about an All Star event. Also due to the fact that, as Whizzkid as pointed out elsewhere, most of the criticisms levelled at Dixon can equally be levelled at other promoters in the UK.Yes, All Star have used tributes in the past, not my cup of tea but there you go. Calling Spidermask a tribute is a bit of a stretch as id like to know who all the fans that have been 'misled' by seeing him advertised imagine is under the hood...Toby Maguire or Peter Parker?All Star have never to my knowledge knowingly advertised dead people, yes pictures of the likes of Yokozuna have appeared on their posters but never been stated as appearing. Funny how when a certain other promoter does this the photos are called 'generic' shots of wrestlers.The FWA have never knowingly advertised wrestlers that dont appear on their cards...hmm interesting seeing as they were handing out flyers with Steve Corino on at WWE events prior to FOH and making no effort to tell fans he wouldnt be there despite him confirming this weeks before. Arguably, as Whizzkid pointed out, he shouldnt have been on the posters in the first place as he has publically said he was never booked. See also Psychosis who was on posters at the venue on the day of the show, with no announcement made that he wasnt appearing outside of an internet statement.I think theres a certain amount of dead horse flogging in the All Star shows always start late debate as well.The fact is All Star have celebrated another year as the UKs top wrestling promoter and as long as their competitors continue to cancel shows, take 4 month breaks and continue to attract smaller attendances this will continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members seph Posted December 17, 2003 Paid Members Share Posted December 17, 2003 (edited) I dare say that Dixon could do a better job on the Bristol City Council.So. Many. Punchlines. [takes a seat, slurps on some coke and folds his arms]In your own time. :DEDIT: ASSA, if you could do me a favour and fish out the place you got that quote of me. Fer the life of me I can remember saying that, but I don't know *when*. And take the "cancel shows" and "four-month breaks" bits out of your last sentence and you've pretty much summed up All-Star's predicament- attendances are falling but Dixon is apparently (read: from what I can see so I may be wrong) not too concerned at the moment.)And Bagga pretty much hit the nail on the head with his solution. Edited December 17, 2003 by sephjnr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest vanhalen Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 And Bagga pretty much hit the nail on the head with his solution. Bagga is the fucking man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CracktonMoj Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Announced wrestlers not showing, too much stalling has made me resent it at times... Croydon's attendance has gone down A LOT over the past 6 months, I would say from 250 max it's gone down to just over a 100... Sometimes a wrestler can't make it to the show for genuine reasons but it's when it happens at every show you get annoyed and lose confidence in the company. When a lot of people lose confidence the firm has problems.To be fair here, stalling can be good - it's just when it's done to kill time rather than get the crowd into it is when it gets annoying.About the rest of Bagga's post:"Hello I am a nail">clunk<"Ow my head "He's becoming all insightful and clever, which freaks me out TOTALLY as it's Bagga and stuff... wouldn't go as far as VanHalen though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex shane's selling ability Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 (edited) He's becoming all insightful and clever, which freaks me out TOTALLY as it's Bagga and stuff I think for next year Allstar should change thier approch if they want to gain new or keep existing fans. Mmmmm watch out Stephen Hawking!!! And I look forward to his next show breaking that difficult 50 paying punters mark... Edited December 17, 2003 by alex shane's selling ability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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