riccardo Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 And Mo -- no, I've never been to a British show. Although outside of your own personal interest, I fail to see how this is relevant to this thread. i think its very relevant actually, seeing as you are mainly focusing on british wrestling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CracktonMoj Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 you have the right to write that this keyboard geek doesn't know what he is talking about. There is at least one member of this forum who has written in essence that one particular British wrestler should die because he is bad.At the risk of totally ruining this thread - you can go to pubs up and down the land and find football fans saying things like 'Our central defender is a pile of shit, why doesn't he just fuck off and die?'. At the risk of totally ruining this thread - misquotation is the bane of the modern world.At the risk of totally ruining this thread - as Majik said earlier, "If a fan doesn't like what they see, then they have every right to voice their opinion".At the risk of totally ruining this thread - I watched Jay and Silent Bob Strikes Back the other day. There's probably a good reason why I mentioned that in this thread.At the risk of totally ruining this thread - if a fan doesn't like what another fan is saying, then they have every right to call the other fan an idiot. Even if it is a year after the fact. Equally, the other fan has a right to respond by saying 'Second hand judgments based on misquotations and taking things out of context aren't that accurate, and furthermore, go fuck yourself.'Do you see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terje Rindal Posted October 2, 2003 Author Share Posted October 2, 2003 And Mo -- no, I've never been to a British show. Although outside of your own personal interest, I fail to see how this is relevant to this thread.i think its very relevant actually, seeing as you are mainly focusing on british wrestling What does attending a live show have to do with anything ? In that case, shouldn't 99.9% on this forum stop talking about Japanese and Mexican wrestling, as they've never been to any of their shows. Mo writes about Japanese wrestling in Power Slam; judging from your logic he shouldn't be. Or what ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members MoChatra Posted October 2, 2003 Paid Members Share Posted October 2, 2003 Let's phrase the question another way. How many tapes have you watched of British wrestling shows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foley4ever Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 This was inspired by reading Alex Shane's signature a while back; How many British wrestling fans does it take to change a light bulb? 1 to change the light bulb2 to argue if it was a work or not1 to say it had no psychology or build1 to say the light bulb sucks2 to argue if advertising a dead light bulb is bad for the businessand atleast 10 to say that the house the light bulb is in in isn't as good as the house next door which use exactly the same light bulbsAnd people wonder why British wrestling is still in the dark!It's no secret that a lot of people in the business are pissed off at the so-called smart mark community for their negative views on wrestling, but isn't it a tad naive to blame the poor state of the business on the group that they're actually targeting ?! Personally I find it kinda laughable that people will blame the internet on their bad business (as has been done on this place, and 1stopwrestling, from day one). This isn't just related to the UK, as just last week, a Norwegian wrestler called a person an 'introvert' for writing a negative review about one of his matches. The Finnish promoter telling Jussican to edit his posts on here certainly fits that bill too.Critics exists in all forms of life, yet the only ones to believe it actually hurts them to any kind of great lenght seems to be the people in the wrestling business. I've yet to hear a restaurant owner blame his bad business on a bad internet review. Ditto for movies. Or TV shows. Or a clothing company. Yet it happens all the time in wrestling. Why ? You hardly see musicians tell their fans to go fuck themselves for being negative, and that they couldn't write a song if their life depended on it, do you ? Yet, if you criticise a wrestling match, the wrestler in question will be very quick to point out how you've never been in the ring, and thus your opinion doesn't matter. Again, why is that ? I'd love to hear some input here, both from fans, wrestlers, or others in the business. I agree completely. There has been a worrying trend in the past year of wrestlers criticising the fans. Hello? We're your audience! No wonder business is down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alex Shanes smelling ability Posted October 2, 2003 Share Posted October 2, 2003 Just wanted to add that my sig was intended to be funny and not at all taken seriously. Most people who know me know this and I just made it up when I rejoined this forum and thought it was witty. As for the topic I feel that no British wrestler has had the same amount of internet shit that I have in the past 2 years so I feel slightly qualified to answer. I think people are people at the end of the day. If a person goes to a show where they are actively encouraged to be part of that show then it is only far that they have their opinion voiced in the sound of cheers, boo's ect. But when people's insults become personal on a public forum, that they know the wrestler in question read's, then that can lead to problems and I understand why.If you work in Safeways and you do a bad job then you know that it is something that you can sort out in the confines of the shop. If the person with the problem then moans about it in the pub to people you know and you over hear it then your bound to be pissed off. Before anyone says theres a difference the difference is that most UK workers make less then an average Safeways member of staff and in their job they are not risking their lives to give the customers value for money. Some fans do act with very little respect for wrestlers as human being, almost as if they forget thats what we are. I have been hounded for almost two years with totally offensive emails, prank phone calls, poison pen letters and must get about 10 email virus's a week and for what? Fans pm me without introducing themselves when my messenger is set to busy and then have the nerve to call me a prick for not answering them, sometimes when I'm not even at my pc. This kind of rudeness is, to me, unacceptable and I would make no bones about punching some of these people if I ever found out who they were. Sorry if that sound like an unprofessional view but these people are taking it out of the confines of what I am payed to have to deal with. End of story. This is how most of us would react in a none wrestling enviroment and just like wrestlers are only people so are fans. If a person is a dick then they are a dick full stop and dont get special treatment because even though they were personally rude to me "I am a fan". If some one tracks down my home number just to shout wrestling related abuse down the phone (which has happened on several occasions) and I found them, unprofessional or not , I would treat them just like some bloke who spat in my pint down the pub. Some other wrestlers might deal with this differently but I'm just speaking for me and a few of my friends.This is what is wrong, not posistive or even negative critisism. I have spoken to two of my biggest ditractors Alex Shane's selling ability (on line) and Whizz Kid (on the phone) and found them both to be nice guys. Even though I disagree with alot of their views I have come to realise that it is just about wrestling and nothing more. Hence that is more than acceptable. I think people need to realise that when you are slagging off someone (especially in the British scene where the person in question is likely to read it) just bear in mind that it is a person just like you who has feeling's just like you. I have learnt to ignore it and constanly tell some of the younger guys not to let it get to them but what people have to realise is that it does. I dont think it will ever change and the wrestling world would be a less interesting place if it did. All I am saying is that you have to at least try and understand how it would feel to have your hard work pissed on like that from some faceless name on the forum. If wrestlers had a forum were they discussed the fans and one of them slagged you off, I bet you would jump to your own defence. Most of the WWE guys are so busy they have difficulty spending time with their kids let alone their pc but us Brits are not that lucky at the moment. We read fan reaction to try and improve. But when reaction turns to hate that is a worry. I was reading on here the other day people saying that Brock Lesnar was moody at an autograph signing recently and that he was a c*** because of it? I found that really disturbing how he was judged by so many without hearing his side. Perhaps he was working heel and protecting kayfabe? Maybe he had just had a bad day. Hell we all have them occasionally but wouldn't it be the shits for any of us to be judged internally by the people you risk your life trying to entertain for that one day?I am not having a go at anyone I am simply explaining how it is from a wrestlers side of the fence. People will say that its part of the businss so live with it and I'm not saying it isn't. But let me just leave you with this thought. Next time some one comes into your school, college or place of employment and thinks your not good at what you do or thinks your a dick I want you imagine that instead of keeping that view to themselves they stuck it up to lamp posts around town so all your friends could see. Because for alot of people in wrestling most of their friends are the other boys who read these forums. I don't think you would like it even if you were expected too. We will live with it, doesn't mean we have to like it. Its human nature to get defensive when poked at and incase any one forgot wrestlers are human.Thanks for readingAlex Shane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbins Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 1. Safeway's workers are not in the entertainment business. They haven't chosen a career path that is subjected to public scrutiny.2. If a 12 year-old halfwit started accusing me of being shit at my job, I doubt I'd take it to heart.3. Terje~!, MOJ~!, Linus~!, Chris32~!, RMC~!, NEM~!, CattleM~!, Majik~! = Best. Thread. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestle-zone Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 No one likes critisism, its always a hard bitter pill to swallow. The thing is I have found the main bone of critisism comes from people who dont actually go to shows, they don't buy the tapes, they just try to be Smart. Example lets say Alex is flavour of the month, and someone praises him for something or another. You can guarentee that there will be about 5 pages of replies and 70% will be slagging him off. And I would bet that 50% of those have never seen him wrestle.I have taken loads of shit about my promotion, and sometimes I will bite back, anyone can come up to me at a show and say they did not like it, i will happilly sit down with them and listen to the comments. But when someone who has looked at a few pictures on the site, maybe downloaded a clip or two slags off what we do, then thats different. If people would rather hide behind a computer to slag off a wrestler or promotion then they are not worth the bandwidth they use. If a fan goes to a show and feels let down they have the right to complain, it it be on the internet forums, thats fine to a point. they purchased a ticket and went home let down. But so called marks/smarts or what ever who dont go to shows, just sit infront of the computer, with one eye on the latest SST tape and one eye on the UKFF waiting to see who they can offend. Thats the shits to be honest and well i have learned the hard way its best not to over react to them. After all if they are talking about you, you are doing something right. Just my 2 cents...Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex shane's selling ability Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 My own personal belief is that there's far too much emphasis on differentiating between internet and non-internet fans. Fans are just that fans - so what if some fans communicate on the net - its no difference from fans discussing their favourite sport between themselves in a pub.Whilst I agree with your statement, it cannot go un-noticed that the FWA in particularly book matches, wrestlers and angles almost entirely for the internet. That's not necessarily a criticism but it does mean that if you asked a cross-section of British fans who Jack Xavier, James Tighe or even Alex were, the majority wouldn't have a clue.The British wrestling fan-base is far bigger than the 1000 or so that will be at Uprising but the lack of promotion in any other way than the internet means it's a section of fans that will remain untapped. Future TV exposure will obviously help, but by creating and advancing storylines on the internet alone you are alienating a lot of your potential audience, particularly when some matches don't really function as stand alone bouts without knowing the storyline (see the never-ending Birchill run-ins).Whilst I thank Alex for pointing out that my criticism is always about wrestling and not of him as a person (now we've both said it umpteen times perhaps Moj will accept it), I would disagree with the Safeway comparison. Wrestling is about entertainment at the end of the day and I feel perfectly justified criticising someone who I feel has given a poor performance in a similar way I may criticise a comedian who doesn't make me laugh or an actor who is wooden. At the end of the day part of my ticket is paying for the performers in the ring/on the stage, and if they aren't performing well why shouldn't we point it out?At the end of the day FWA are now charging the same prices as WWE for tickets to their shows so we should be getting wrestling of the very highest level from top to bottom, and whilst there are always world class performers on their shows this is not reflected throughout the card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick "Madman" Kelly Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 At the end of the day FWA are now charging the same prices as WWE for tickets to their shows so we should be getting wrestling of the very highest level from top to bottom, and whilst there are always world class performers on their shows this is not reflected throughout the card.Though to a certain degree this is right the other side of the coin is ive paid the same ammounts for WWE shows in the UK & watched top class wrestlers under perform & resulting in sub par matches . Ive been to FWA shows & watched who people might not consider world class performers who have surprised me & come up with some belting matches . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC420 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Everyone in the public eye has to deal with shit. It's just that wrestlers appear to deal with it a lot worse than anyone else. At least wrestlers only have to be concerned about what is written on the internet about you. Imagine if you were ridiculed constantly in the tabloids. I am not saying that it is right that people phone wrestlers up saying they suck. I'm just saying deal with it, just like a host of celebrities have to do every day to a far higher degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CracktonMoj Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 At the end of the day FWA are now charging the same prices as WWE for tickets to their shows so we should be getting wrestling of the very highest level from top to bottom, and whilst there are always world class performers on their shows this is not reflected throughout the card.Though to a certain degree this is right the other side of the coin is ive paid the same ammounts for WWE shows in the UK & watched top class wrestlers under perform & resulting in sub par matches . Ive been to FWA shows & watched who people might not consider world class performers who have surprised me & come up with some belting matches . As my first post here says: the difference is that even though some workers on FWA events may not be tippy top workers with the stamina of Ric Flair and the ability of Kenta Kobashi and the charisma of Steve Austin, I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times I've been watching an FWA match and thought 'These guys don't want to be in the ring!'. You can't ask any more from a wrestler except to try their best within their limitations (be that ability wise or booking wise) to entertain.Now, with the recent WWE show I went to at Belfast, there were eight or so bouts, and with the exception of one match (WGTT/Guerreros), EVERYBODY phoned it in. This includes Chris Benoit who was content to sit in three Cena chinlocks, interspersing that with throwing a few chops and finally hitting a release German for the win. The main event provided was Tajiri-Rikishi/FBI.By your standards ASSellingA, the WWE show would have been better than the FWA show as there were better workers on the card, despite them not actually putting on good performances. To me, that's idiotic, but it does enable me to see how you rate All Star shows over everything else - because a typical All Star show could have Jonny Storm, Doug Williams, James Mason, Robbie Brookside, Robbie Dynamite, American Dragon, PN News, Julio Torres and Skull Murphy as the wrestlers, which is altogether a strong lineup on paper. The fact that only one or two of them will perform to their best ability on the night is irrelevant, because they have the potential and the ability ( in some cases long gone, but meh) to be brilliant. Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Chris32 Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I guess, therefore, the great friction between the wrestlers and the fans in the UK scene comes from different ideological perspectives, different visions of what wrestling should be due to the changing direction of American wrestling. And in that sense I suppose it could be said that British wrestling has an identity crisis.See, I read it slightly differently. As far as I'm aware, the only people who criticise the modernisation of the British scene seem to be the people who have most to lose from it happening - as in, old style promoters who care more about lining their pockets than the state of the business, and wrestlers who are in it for whatever payoff they can get rather than providing good entertainment or advancing wrestling's perception.There might be some truth in that, but it isn't the whole story. I read fans criticising the 'modernisation' (nice New Labour word there) of wrestling in Britain too. Take someone like Fadda; he doesn't have any ulterior motives in criticising the more US indy based style that guys like Johnny Storm and Jody Fleisch (and I'm sure countless others too) have been using. His criticism is that the modern style, as we're calling it, places too much emphasis on superficial reactions and thus misses the essence of wrestling - the storytelling and the emotion that can be generated through that. So people like him, and wrestlers like McDonald (I seriously doubt that his only motives in criticising some of the new breed are selfish) want to see a move back to the more methodical, deliberate style that used to define British wrestling. Another argument in favour of the older style is the reduced risk of injury. Replacing stories with stunts would go along way to avoiding serious bodily deterioration and extending careers. But you have a situation where a lot of fans are only interested in wrestling as a gratuitous stunt-show and wrestling is a business so the demand has to be met. Not all moderisation is necessarily good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alex Shanes smelling ability Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 Just to make myself clear as some people seem to of misunderstood me.I don't disagree with the fact that wrestlers will or should be critisised. What I am saying is that it doesn't mean that they have to like it or agree when it happens.Also the people in Safeways are doing their job for money. Most people in the wrestling business in England are doing it for a love of the game or just to entertain the crowd. With this being the case I think that it's alot harder for a wrestler to except such harsh views than someone who is being paid a full time wage for making their customer's happy. Also I have never had any personal abuse from any 12 year old's to my knowledge. The youngest was 15 and the age grange goes way on past 30. Thses are not children so please dont try and down play the issue. No one is moaning about construtive critisism what I am saying is when the shit becomes personal, and in this day and age of wrestling it often does, it's a totally different matter.When we are all millionaires (or even just well paid!) I'm sure it will just be water of a ducks back but while we are all trying to give the UK fans something to be proud of sometimes it can get on the boys collective tits so to speak. When you make a point on a public forum and some one disagree's, that's their right. It doesn't mean you have to like it. If the disagreement comes off as a personal attack (as we all know happens alot around here) then the chances are it will piss the first poster off. This is exactly the same principle. We wrestle to entertain not to be slagged off. When you drive a car there is a risk you may have a car crash and it's one that you accept. That is not the reason you drive the car either. But the day that car does crash the chances are your going to be a little upset about it. You knew it was part of driving but it doesn't make it any less unpleasent when it happens. After some crashes (like my father and his motorcycle) people find it hard or some times impossible to return to that chosen past time and never do it again. I have seen a few people's confidence as wrestlers smashed to pieces by "car crash" like comments on this forum. They knew it might happen but it doesn't mean they were ready for it when it happened. Some in the end find it too much and quit wrestling altogether. Mike Bishop is a good example and a real nice guy to go with it. People close to me will tell you that I myself have been very close several times too. To be a good wrestler you have to care about the opinion of the people you are working for. That is why it can seem so harsh as you are getting it thrown in your face from the very people you have worked so hard to try and entertain.I can be shot down by pople who have never steeped in a ring on this but as some one who has I am just telling you how if feels not if its right or wrong.Thanks for reading (AGAIN!)Alex Shane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Slim Posted October 3, 2003 Share Posted October 3, 2003 I am realy getting sick of the way people critisise and insult wrestlers over the net, dont get me wrong i have a little problem with Hade obviously, but i am going to be a man and at croydon Hopefully settle things with a hand shake and a apology, as i for one have no right critising Hade for his actions as he might have had his reasons. Also due to Kayfabe no fan will ever know if this is a work or real.But thats something that we will maybe wait and see and find out about.I cant believe so many fans on the ukff are so critical of Alex Shane, the guy is one of the nicest wrestlers i have met in years, he is prepared to listen and actually trys to continue a conversation even when other fans are trying to talk.His ring work is excellent, and the way he makes time to speak to people is brilliant.Dont get me wrong i have met wrestlers who come across not to friendly but realised that some are a bit shy, i will not get into names but i have met nearly the entire FWA roster and am shocked how friendly they are.So next time you see Alex after a show, go up to him say hello and actually be nice, as ALex used to be a wrestling fan, thats why he has now got his dream rolling.Simon King SLim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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