Joshua vs Usyk - Sep 25 🥊 🇬🇧

[Keith Houchen]

15 minutes ago, Your Fight Site said:

People were wanting a unification bout when Fury and Joshua were the title holders. Why would that have changed now that there’s a different person holding the belts?

Because a different person is holding the belts. The attraction in this instance is the fighters, not the belts. People were clamouring for the boxers, both top tier and both countrymen, to have at it. 

[David]

31 minutes ago, Your Fight Site said:

People were wanting a unification bout when Fury and Joshua were the title holders. Why would that have changed now that there’s a different person holding the belts? A unification bout sells itself, no matter who’s holding the belts.

People wanted to see Joshua face Fury. The top two British heavyweights who have dominated on the international scene. It's nothing to do with the ridiculous amount of alphabet titles either guy holds. In fact, I'm willing to bet that before the weekend a fraction of those fans in the arena even knew which belts Joshua and Fury held. And rightly so, the title scene in boxing is a joke.

Have you been watching boxing for the past twenty odd years or so? All manner of chumps have held titles in different weight classes. The titles, in reality, mean next to nothing. They certainly don't make any difference to the type of punter who's shelling out dough for a ticket to a fight. 

If Fury wins, a Fury vs Joshua fight is still far more massive than a Fury vs Usyk fight. 

36 minutes ago, Your Fight Site said:

Joshua’s next payday would be a big money fight against Fury, but you really think Hearn’s going to go into negotiations with a level head? Joshua’s got nothing to bring to the table now after losing his belts first to a late stand-in, out of shape Mexican and now to a cruiserweight.

Joshua has nothing to bring to the table? He's a huge boxing star with millions of fans. You think Usyk against Dillian Whyte, for example, fills the Tottenham stadium? Even if every heavyweight title available was on the line? No chance.

The fact you're calling Usyk a cruiserweight as if he's some sort of joke is absolute nonsense. 

Even after that loss the Joshua vs Fury fight would do mammoth business. It's even been said that Fury would consider giving up his belt in order to get the Joshua fight, which tells you all you need to know.

[Carbomb]

It's not much in itself, but recently Idris Elba dropped a Daily Duppy on GRM Daily (paging Keith) in which he said "Sorry, Tyson, AJ's my guy". This was long after AJ had lost to and avenged his loss against Ruiz. There's still a narrative there of "picking a side", as it were.

Also, bear in mind the Ruiz loss doesn't really mean anything in the grand scheme of things: because AJ avenged his only loss in convincing fashion, he's basically made it look more like a freak result. Prior to the Usyk loss, he was the next best thing anyone could come to undefeated. Of course, the Ruiz loss and now the Usyk defeat have given us a fairly strong impression that he would most likely lose to Fury, but the nature of heavyweight combat sports, not to mention the "styles make fights" adage, means that it should be relatively easy to promote AJ/Fury, especially when you consider that there is still quite a bit of enthusiasm in the public imagination regarding both guys.

[Egg Shen]

The belts and unification status was the dressing on top a fight that sells itself. It did add to the fight no doubt, but outside of the boxing hardcore's you could have 1 Heavyweight Title on the line and 90% of fans wouldnt know the difference.

The problem with Saturdays loss is that it will have damaged AJ's reputation massively as a fighter. He was poor, and in the process got beaten up and sounded outboxed by a guy much smaller than himself. It was a damaging loss, much more than the Ruiz loss for me. It just isnt gonna feel like seeing the two best in the World anymore...unless AJ does something remarkable in an Usyk rematch.

With regards to the Ruiz defeat. The fact that Joshua got back to the position he was in prior to Saturday was pretty remarkable. A combination of good promotion, public rebuilding and luckily having an opponent to fight again that embarrassed himself on the night meant Joshua all but erased that defeat from his slate. AJ/Joshua was bigger than ever and they fucked it. I just dont think it'll ever get back there.

I cant see AJ having much luck against Usyk a second time around if thats the path they take. AJ/Fury can always happen, even if he loses to Usyk again. It can always fill Wembley Stadium, but the fact that it isnt gonna happen under near perfect circumstances is a shame.

[Carbomb]

If anything's been proven over the years in combat sports, it's that you can almost sell any fight with the right angle and effort from the fighters and promoters. Look at Derek Chisora - he's been beaten quite a lot, and doesn't have that many wins over top-level fighters, yet they're still able to sell fights with him because of his car-crash personality and fan-friendly style. 

Comparatively, AJ isn't as interesting personality-wise, but he does have a certain profile; in a sense he's sort of become a poster-boy for British boxing because of his style and the way he conducts himself outside the ring, whilst Fury has built up this profile as a bit of a controversial wild card on whom British boxing couldn't ever hang their flag (although this is also down to the societal prejudice against travellers). 

I'm sure they could simply pitch this with a "who's the best of British?" narrative, although I think AJ would have to do some rebuilding first to inspire public imagination again.

[Keith Houchen]

48 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

With regards to the Ruiz defeat. The fact that Joshua got back to the position he was in prior to Saturday was pretty remarkable. A combination of good promotion, public rebuilding and luckily having an opponent to fight again that embarrassed himself on the night meant Joshua all but erased that defeat from his slate. AJ/Joshua was bigger than ever and they fucked it. I just dont think it'll ever get back there.

Yeah it was odd to reference an out of shape Mexican when AJ avenged that loss. But as you say, the manner of the two defeats are what counts. Ruiz could, and was, be put down to a bad night, getting caught unexpectedly, lucky punch etc but the Usyk one cannot be palmed off. It was none of those things, it was a total defeat, outclassed and out manoeuvred and can’t me marked off as a freak result. I don’t think he recovers from this one. 

[Egg Shen]

It can be rebuilt no doubt, it'll be depressing if in a few years time it ends up getting into Khan vs. Brook territory though

The whole angle was it was the two best heavyweights on the planet, all the belts and both British. Usyk put a torch to that.

The chances of that opportunity coming back around anytime soon are pretty slim.

[David]

I actually think the opposite, this loss to Usyk wasn't a loss by embarrassing KO to a fat, no-name Mexican who'd come in on late notice. This was a decision loss to a skilled boxer. It's heavyweight boxing. Fighters are going to lose.

Ali lost to Frazier and Ken Norton, even Britain's own Frank Bruno, who I think is comparable to AJ in physique and style, lost to the likes of Bonecrusher Smith, Tim Witherspoon and obviously Mike Tyson. 

Fans who were going to buy the PPV or a ticket to see Fury face Joshua aren't going to say "nah, he lost to Usyk. Think I'll just stay home and watch Emmerdale instead." The question still has to be answered. Who is best? Fury or Joshua? The only way that's answered is in the boxing ring.

Joshua vs Fury is an event unto itself. It's the two best British heavyweight fighters of recent times going at it. If anything, I hope Joshua losing cools the interest from the middle east for this fight. It would be absolutely criminal for it not to happen in a setting like the Joshua/Usyk fight at the weekend. 

[Egg Shen]

The difference being, he righted the Ruiz loss. Like I said previously, he basically whiped it from his slate. AJ had convenient reasons built in from the moment the fight ended. The rumors of a panic attack, the problems backstage, the last minute replacement. Plus the obvious one that until Ruiz caught him, AJ was bossing it.

The second fight left no doubt of who the better fighter was. It sounds like AJ is gonna try and do the same thing again, but can he? Saturday night was a comprehensive defeat.

The draw of AJ/Fury will still be massive. The fight will sell a million+ PPV's and pack a stadium, but its not gonna have the same special feeling it would have had, that's all im saying. Can you imagine if Joshua dusted Usyk, then Fury KO'd Wilder in a few weeks? we would probably be looking at biggest money fight in the history of boxing. 

The idea of it maybe happening in the UK is a nice thought though.

[David]

5 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

The second fight left no doubt of who the better fighter was. It sounds like AJ is gonna try and do the same thing again, but can he? Saturday night was a comprehensive defeat.

Can AJ beat Usyk? Absolutely. He just needs to change up the gameplan. One thing in his favour is that AJ and his camp know exactly what Usyk is going to do. He won't change anything.

Joshua tried to outbox Usyk and failed. He needs to change tactics and come in heavier, and fight as a bigger boxer. He needs to pressure Usyk and rough him up, similar to how Chisora did. I thought Usyk looked average in that bout.

We all know Joshua has the power to put Usyk away. He just needs to wear the smaller man down, not fight his fight, and then look to land the heavy blows in the mid to later rounds.

Not that it's as simple as that, but this is what he has to do. It has to be Usyk trying to outbox the bigger man who's trying to use his size to rough him up and slow him down.

[Egg Shen]

is AJ capable of that though? and what makes you think Usyk isn't capable of doing anything else?

He has to use his physicality and stength to better use, but he cant go in and fight like Chisora and maraud forward. A muscled up AJ will be blowing out of his arse in 4 rounds if he attempted to fight like that. 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Egg Shen

[David]

16 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

is AJ capable of that though? and what makes you think Usyk isn't capable of doing anything else?

He has to use his physicality and stength to better use, but he cant go in and fight like Chisora and maraud forward. A muscled up AJ will be blowing out of his arse in 4 rounds if he attempted to fight like that. 

AJ has to approach the rematch with the same mindset he did Klitschko. He has to come in big, he has to come in with the mindset that he's not going to outbox Usyk, and he has to come in looking for the stoppage. Let's be honest, if Usyk is still standing come round 8 or 9 then Joshua likely isn't winning anyway. 

Usyk isn't going to change his approach. Why would he? It worked so well for him. He'll come in looking to do more of the same, and rightfully so.

[wandshogun09]

2 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

The belts and unification status was the dressing on top a fight that sells itself. It did add to the fight no doubt, but outside of the boxing hardcore's you could have 1 Heavyweight Title on the line and 90% of fans wouldnt know the difference. 

Yeah, Joshua vs Fury is a big enough fight on its own. It never needed titles but they did add extra spice to the whole thing and made it feel even bigger. With the names, followings and history there though, you could do AJ-Fury with no belts on the line and it’ll still be huge. I think they’ve missed the boat on maximising it now though. It’d still be massive now but before this loss to Usyk it would’ve been an absolute monster. It’s never gonna be quite as big as it could’ve been but hopefully it happens before any more of the lustre is lost. If they string this out another 2/3 years and Fury loses to someone or AJ loses again or they both start declining, it’ll be a travesty.

I’m definitely with Keith though. I think this loss is gonna be harder to bounce back from than the Ruiz one was. And in some ways, Usyk being so good makes it worse. AJ could chalk that Ruiz loss up as a fluke, I don’t agree but he could tell himself that and Hearn could spin it that way. And Ruiz being a fatty and a big underdog who wasn’t expected to win backs up and supports that narrative. With this Usyk loss, there was no explaining it away. He got outboxed and outskilled over 12 rounds. 

[Egg Shen]

6 minutes ago, David said:

AJ has to approach the rematch with the same mindset he did Klitschko. He has to come in big, he has to come in with the mindset that he's not going to outbox Usyk, and he has to come in looking for the stoppage. Let's be honest, if Usyk is still standing come round 8 or 9 then Joshua likely isn't winning anyway. 

Usyk isn't going to change his approach. Why would he? It worked so well for him. He'll come in looking to do more of the same, and rightfully so.

Agree with that top statement. AJ definitely has to come in and try finding  a way to assert himself. His jab was pathetic on the weekend, he was pawing with it when he should have been drilling it home. He really did nothing to make Usyk second guess what he was doing. 

There's always chance that AJ had ideas of doing that Saturday and just wasnt able too because Usyk simply didnt allow him too. If thats the case, AJ may not think he has a way to win and he'll all to fuck psychologically.

The bottom statement may prove to be accurate, but do you believe a guy like Usyk wouldnt be able to adjust his gameplan to counteract AJ's? im inclined to think he could.

[David]

3 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

Agree with that top statement. AJ definitely has to come in and try finding  a way to assert himself. His jab was pathetic on the weekend, he was pawing with it when he should have been drilling it home. He really did nothing to make Usyk second guess what he was doing. 

There's always chance that AJ had ideas of doing that Saturday and just wasnt able too because Usyk simply didnt allow him too. If thats the case, AJ may not think he has a way to win and he'll all to fuck psychologically.

The bottom statement may prove to be accurate, but do you believe a guy like Usyk wouldnt be able to adjust his gameplan to counteract AJ's? im inclined to think he could.

Everything about Joshua's approach suggested that he was going to try and box with Usyk. From coming in lighter, to how he went about the early rounds. It was clear as day he believed he could beat Usyk at his own game, which is why it went so horribly wrong. There isn't a heavyweight out there with the possible exception of Tyson Fury who can match boxing skills with Usyk. And even then, I doubt Fury would try. He would likely look to implement his size, his weight, and wear Usyk down.

That's the approach Joshua probably should have taken. And I think he will in the rematch. I fully expect him to come in heavier, and with a more size-centric gameplan. 

One thing that Joshua was correct about was when he said Usyk can be hit. He's not hard to find, although he does move in and out well. 

Let's be honest, if Joshua had come into the Klitschko fight with the same approach as he did at the weekend he'd likely have lost a lopsided decision then as well. But he went about that fight in the right manner. He imposed his will, and that's what he has to do against Usyk.

The wildcard for me is that in doing so he'll be more vulnerable, and Joshua's chin is dicey. And it's not just that he can be hit and dropped, but how it seems to affect him afterwards. 

I definitely think the rematch will be closer, and it'll come down to Joshua being able to impose his will as the (I'm predicting) much heavier, harder-hitting man, wearing down his smaller opponent and stopping him, or Usyk being able to do what he did at the weekend, moving and boxing well while Joshua eventually runs out steam and gets stopped or loses another decision.

One thing I'm fairly sure of is that neither of them beats Tyson Fury. Joshua vs Fury would be fireworks for as long as it lasted, but would resemble the 2nd Wilder fight for me, while Fury vs Usyk would be the drizzling shits. Fury would turn that into a shitshow, with his awkward style, leaning, grabbing, holding, before eventually getting a late stoppage.