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Chris B
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1 hour ago, Chris B said:

I'm not finding the pronoun-volunteering issue very clear, @patiirc - I think I roughly get what you mean, but I'm aware I could be misinterpreting. Do you mean insisting on people giving their pronouns in day-to-day life?

Yeah kind of. 

You'll see it in work, emails, on twitter and at meetings and so on. 

'My name is Fred, my pronouns are he/him.' 

Thing is, Fred's non binary and isn't a he/him at all, in fact he'd rather have no pronouns at all.  However Fred can't yet come out because of Fred's situation at home. Thus Fred is stuck misgendering Fred, until Fred is able to come out. Thus meaning Fred is reminded of this every single day, increasing anxiety, sparking any body dysphoria and or dysmorphia and making Fred miserable as Fred's living a daily lie. Fred's exhausted with keeping up the pretence. 

 

Hopefully that clarifies. 

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I think there's a lot of pressure to do it, in a well-meaning way. If you're working in a company that's trying to be progressive, say, and everyone does pronouns then looks to you and you don't want to do it, you either out yourself by your reluctance or make yourself look like a bigot. You see it a lot on social media too, where the call for cis people to put their pronouns in their bio has morphed among some people to mean not putting them there means you're a bigot, forcing closeted people to out themselves or be ostracised.

The company I work for now are mostly decent about it, we did an anonymous survey last year and over half of us marked ourselves down as LGBTQIA+. We're fully remote and we have a pronoun section in the company Slack which people are free to use if they want - it's really handy when talking to someone you rarely interact with to be able to open their Slack bio and see what pronouns they prefer but otherwise we don't call attention to it so people don't feel pressured or singled out in meetings.

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2 minutes ago, Jesse said:

I think there's a lot of pressure to do it, in a well-meaning way. If you're working in a company that's trying to be progressive, say, and everyone does pronouns then looks to you and you don't want to do it, you either out yourself by your reluctance or make yourself look like a bigot. You see it a lot on social media too, where the call for cis people to put their pronouns in their bio has morphed among some people to mean not putting them there means you're a bigot, forcing closeted people to out themselves or be ostracised.

The company I work for now are mostly decent about it, we did an anonymous survey last year and over half of us marked ourselves down as LGBTQIA+. We're fully remote and we have a pronoun section in the company Slack which people are free to use if they want - it's really handy when talking to someone you rarely interact with to be able to open their Slack bio and see what pronouns they prefer but otherwise we don't call attention to it so people don't feel pressured or singled out in meetings.

Oh, I have no doubt that there sometimes is pressure on people to do it, and the Slack channel thing you highlighted sounds great.

I was more thinking of where you HAVE to do it. That would, as far as I know, be illegal. 

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Just now, Jesse said:

 

I think there's a lot of pressure to do it, in a well-meaning way.

 

Yeah a lot of these measures and drives from places are done with the best intentions but done in such a massively clumsy way. Especially corporate visibility, it so often feels like that South Park episode with the nurse who has a foetus growing out of her face. Not only are you risking alienating people, your potential alienating the ones you’re trying to help, like in yours and pats examples. 

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I have to confess some ignorance here, so I'd definitely appreciate some edification on this: is there a particular connotation to "they/them" that is undesirable to someone identifying as non-binary? I was genuinely under the impression that "they/them" was the pronoun set of choice for those who didn't want to be forced into any particular identity. Obviously, I'd like to avoid doing that through ignorance.

(I had also heard the words "ze/zer/zim" but I would hazard a guess that it was too much of a new set of words for people to get used to?)

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Posted (edited)

Some nonbinary people are gender fluid, so their pronouns might change depending on how they're presenting. I've got a friend like this who enjoys presenting as female sometimes and prefers to be addressed as she when she does this, but when he's presenting as male doesn't mind being addressed as he. They is used sometimes as a catch all on social media because it's easier than Facebook wondering what you're up to fannying around with your profile/gender settings. 

Zim/xim/zer/xem etc are some nonbinary attempts to have a pronoun people would feel comfortable with, alongside the prefix "Mx" 

Edited by jazzygeofferz
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50 minutes ago, jazzygeofferz said:

I've got a friend like this who enjoys presenting as female sometimes and prefers to be addressed as she when she does this, but when he's presenting as male doesn't mind being addressed as he.

OK, a few things before I post, this may seem all TERFy and bigoted and that's fair enough, and it isn't aimed at your friend.  Also, as a cishet man I have no valid opinion.

When I see stuff like that, I can totally understand why some women think some men are taking the piss when it comes to self ID and access to women only spaces.  I'm not saying your friend tries to access these spaces, just for clarification.  To me, there isn't a world of difference between this and that tory bollocks who said he is male except for Tuesday afternoon.  He was obviously taking the piss out of pronouns and generally being an awful prick, but I can understand why some women get annoyed at part time self IDing women.  Being a woman isn't cosplay where you present as the patriarchal view of what a woman should look like.

As I said before, we are trying to be progressive and helpful, but in an incredibly clumsy way.  I think it's wrong that someone who has struggled all of their lives with who they are, faced the horrible personal anguish, the abuse, the family disowning them, the depression, the ostracism can now in some small part live their life with freedom and acceptance, and then some berk like me with stubble can put on some lippy and a dress and say "Yeah, I'm female" and be afforded the same status?  It's offensive.

I was reading something about how there has been an exponential rise in women being charged with sexual offences, something like a 70% rise in the last 5 years.  Yet a quick look shows that the huge majority of these cases are where people are self IDing as women.  It really takes the piss out of women and trans people, as if trans people are responsible for them and need to speak out against them and condemn them.  In my opinion it's no different to demanding all muslims apologise for ISIS.

TL;DR  Self ID is problematic as fuck

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20 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

OK, a few things before I post, this may seem all TERFy and bigoted and that's fair enough, and it isn't aimed at your friend.  Also, as a cishet man I have no valid opinion.

When I see stuff like that, I can totally understand why some women think some men are taking the piss when it comes to self ID and access to women only spaces.  I'm not saying your friend tries to access these spaces, just for clarification.  To me, there isn't a world of difference between this and that tory bollocks who said he is male except for Tuesday afternoon.  He was obviously taking the piss out of pronouns and generally being an awful prick, but I can understand why some women get annoyed at part time self IDing women.  Being a woman isn't cosplay where you present as the patriarchal view of what a woman should look like.

As I said before, we are trying to be progressive and helpful, but in an incredibly clumsy way.  I think it's wrong that someone who has struggled all of their lives with who they are, faced the horrible personal anguish, the abuse, the family disowning them, the depression, the ostracism can now in some small part live their life with freedom and acceptance, and then some berk like me with stubble can put on some lippy and a dress and say "Yeah, I'm female" and be afforded the same status?  It's offensive.

I was reading something about how there has been an exponential rise in women being charged with sexual offences, something like a 70% rise in the last 5 years.  Yet a quick look shows that the huge majority of these cases are where people are self IDing as women.  It really takes the piss out of women and trans people, as if trans people are responsible for them and need to speak out against them and condemn them.  In my opinion it's no different to demanding all muslims apologise for ISIS.

TL;DR  Self ID is problematic as fuck

Ah, Keith. 

Tl:dr Self ID isnt problematic as fuck and trans men also exist. (The maddening part of the Terf debate they miss out) 

Trans people in Pakistan actually have more rights than trans people in the UK. It may not be enforced, but the legislation is there and enacted, despite the horrible lives hindjuras et al are subjected to. 

Last time I checked bigender and genderfluid are both valid for gender dysphoric presentation. 

You then have transmen who terfs forget about as many/most are not flannel shirt wearing chino stereotypes indeed when hormones kick in you'll have a man in front of you and many like to get buff, see aydan dowling, Elliot Page, Chris Mozier et al. 

Beefcake is much what ultra femme is to some mtf transitioners. 

With toilet rules in place, women will actually come in to contact with way more men, than they ever have. but it's never mentioned, same with women's spaces... 

Government has just done a toilet consultation and wants more binary public loos and it looks like segregation much like the US did with race and has done with trans people continues. 

I understand the fears, but erasure of trans women kinda completely misses the point, opens up new problems and really does not scratch the surface of lesbian violence either. much like straight men who are raped by gay men, or even gay men who rape men in general. The Manchester dude is Britain's most prolific rapist, then you realise there's a massive can of worms that would be better known if people would report it. Cept they dont and instead seemingly and it's near enough always Canadian reports are used in the toilet debate here. 

 women also would have to face up to the massive issues where women are pedophilic perps, groomers etc but that's also brushed aside and buried as well

I find it totally ironic that terfs answers to trans people is to behave like men, be funded by men and directed by men, especially christian far right groups and dont get the stockholm syndrome nature if that relationship. 

There's a load more, including many trans people feeling more safe in EA2010 because it affords some protection and this now includes non binary. 

And then, you have a cohort of transvestites who are completely left out of the situation no dysphoria, no desire to change gender and quite happy going out and dressing up without a care whatever their cis gender is. 

It's not what terfs say it is nor is it a tra force everything. If the Bastard GRA had been rolled in to the EA we'd not be having this discussion as trans people have self declared for ever. its only the last 50 years that there's been any legislation around it. 

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My point is self ID can be used against trans people as they suddenly seem to be held accountable when wronguns abuse it. I didn’t mention trans men because my point was how I can understand why some women feel that men are invading their spaces, specifically shelters and the like. 
 

What rights don’t trans people have at the moment that cis people have, and what can us cis people do to help get them? Writing to your MP and things like that?
 

Showing my complete ignorance here, why do some people hold Elliot Page up as a queer icon. He’s a man who is attracted to women. 

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5 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Showing my complete ignorance here, why do some people hold Elliot Page up as a queer icon. He’s a man who is attracted to women. 

You know he's a trans man, right?

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Just now, Keith Houchen said:

My point is self ID can be used against trans people as they suddenly seem to be held accountable when wronguns abuse it. I didn’t mention trans men because my point was how I can understand why some women feel that men are invading their spaces, specifically shelters and the like. 
 

What rights don’t trans people have at the moment that cis people have, and what can us cis people do to help get them? Writing to your MP and things like that?
 

Showing my complete ignorance here, why do some people hold Elliot Page up as a queer icon. He’s a man who is attracted to women. 

The point is though if you segregate on birth sex as is the terf way, they will have to share space with trans men, as in talks like acts like looks like a man. 

So instead of trans women they'll have the manliest men to share with instead, the exact thing they claim they don't want. surely you can see the ridiculousness of that? 

What rights include that cis people dont have includes birth certs and marraige in name and gender will be dead name in law. cis spousal veto on a grc application. 

Because of lack of proof, it's harder to register to vote, took me 5/6 years after transition meaning that there are trans people who are disenfranchised. 

Non binary people dont exist legally barring the recent EA ruling. 

Access to health care is problematic especially for pregnancy and sexual health and even more mundane as nhs numbers change and unless markers are made post transition transwomen wont be screened for prostate cancer, transmen for breast and cervical cancer. 

There's a shed ton more including death, estates and legal entity. 

Elliot was a lesbian, is now trans, beibg or having been 2 out 4 of lgbtq is pretty much why, ditto being so open about it. 

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9 minutes ago, Chris B said:

You know he's a trans man, right?

Are you saying he is a different kind of man to you or I?  Either trans men are men, or they aren’t. 

 

4 minutes ago, patiirc said:

You know he's a trans man, right?

Oh Absolutely! It’s such a huge blind spot which is, as you say, completely illogical!

I hear what you’re saying regarding difficulties and how hugely problematic things are, particularly the NHS, but with respect, that isn’t denying anyone rights. It puts up numerous obstacles though so I guess that’s how they get around the wording. 
So what can we do to help?

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