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UFC 260: Miocic vs Ngannou 2 - Mar 27 🇺🇸


Who wins and how?   

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2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

I would say maybe the only reason why I wouldn't make Ngannou/Jones right away would be marketing - give Big Fran some matches to wreck some fools and build up this monster champion aura, and then pitch the fight against Jones.

But that would be predominantly marketing, and not a necessary thing to do (although I must admit, I'd like Francis to get some defences in, be the legit champ he deserves to be seen as). 

I totally get what you’re saying here but building fighters up very rarely pans out in MMA. I remember when they tried to build up Cro Cop for the big summer showdown in 2007 against Randy Couture. All he had to do was squash this Gonzaga chump to create something for the highlight reel and promotion. We saw how that went and I still haven’t fully got over it. They pissed Couture vs Cro Cop up the wall for no reason. They nearly ballsed Chuck vs Wandy up as well by trying to build it up, and the old Keith Jardine shaped monkey wrench nearly killed it dead. You’ve got to make these fights as soon as you can. Like you say, with the Heavyweights especially there’s just too much risk. They could do Ngannou vs Lewis or whoever next to build up the Jones fight and Lewis could catch him and knock him out, or Jones gets injured and then the chance to make the fight is gone and might never come back. 

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Well fuck me. There was always the chance. I’ve been saying it for ages, no matter how good you are, weathering Ngannou’s storm is easier said than done. But this was more than the old ‘punc

As has become a bit of a habit lately with rematches, I’ve gone back and revisited the first Stipe Miocic vs Francis Ngannou fight from 2018. Can you believe it was more than 3 years ago? That’s flown

The way I see it. If you want to do what's right for the sport you do Ngannou v Stipe 3 If you wanna create a mouthwatering superfight for the ages in fucking Zaire or somewhere, throw all t

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1 minute ago, jimufctna24 said:

I don't rate his wins over Cain and JDS that highly. Both were shot to pieces, especially Cain. 

So was Arlovski really. 

thats a fair point, if you want to dissect it in depth you can probably pick apart a few of the wins but looking at it, JDS was coming off 3 wins going into the Ngannou fight (including a stoppage of Derrick Lewis), as for the Cain one, who knows? he got sparked early so we'll never know what kind of shape he was in.

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Just now, wandshogun09 said:

I totally get what you’re saying here but building fighters up very rarely pans out in MMA. I remember when they tried to build up Cro Cop for the big summer showdown in 2007 against Randy Couture. All he had to do was squash this Gonzaga chump to create something for the highlight reel and promotion. We saw how that went and I still haven’t fully got over it. They pissed Couture vs Cro Cop up the wall for no reason. They nearly ballsed Chuck vs Wandy up as well by trying to build it up, and the old Keith Jardine shaped monkey wrench nearly killed it dead. You’ve got to make these fights as soon as you can. Like you say, with the Heavyweights especially there’s just too much risk. They could do Ngannou vs Lewis or whoever next to build up the Jones fight and Lewis could catch him and knock him out, or Jones gets injured and then the chance to make the fight is gone and might never come back. 

Definitely. Sorry, I should've worded my original post a bit better: it was more about the excuses a promoter would have for not making Ngannou/Jones, and that struck me as being the only reasonable one he might have, and not for the reason White gave. Jones clearly doesn't duck anyone, and if he wants more money, give him more money. He's the best fighter on the UFC roster.

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12 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

He's the best fighter on the UFC roster.

Very debatable, especially on recent form. 

I think Volk is the best personally, with Usman just behind. Yan looks to be something special as well. 

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35 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

I dont know how a Jones fight would go, but if Ngannou/Stipe do fight again id find it hard to bet against Ngannou based on Saturday night.

In the same way as many people found it hard to see a way Ngannou could win based on the way the first fight went? Guys at the top level know how to change things up. Stipe himself said that he deviated from the gameplan because he thought Francis was gassing. A huge mistake on his part, which he readily admits.

But if you think Miocic can't come back and win the third bout you're mental. He did it with DC. He can do it with Ngannou.

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1 hour ago, David said:

You think a Ngannou vs Lewis II PPV would only do "slightly worse" than a Jones vs Ngannou card? Really? Especially considering the absolute snoozefest the first fight was?

I'll tell you what, if you're right, then it just highlights how fucking terrible the UFC are at promoting their fights.

Not a single person would remember the first fight they had by now. That's a complete non factor. 

I think a Lewis/Ngannou fight would do a few hundred thousand buys less, but in the grand scheme of things, that's nothing, and certainly not worth Dana paying 10 million for. Same goes for the Stipe matches 

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59 minutes ago, David said:

 

But if you think Miocic can't come back and win the third bout you're mental. He did it with DC. He can do it with Ngannou.

Maybe, but that was the kind of 'ive got your number' type performance that would lead me to be incredibly shocked if a 3rd fight went any differently. It was domination.

What part of the gameplan can he possibly have deviated from? apart from clipping Ngannou and thinking he'd hurt him, i dont think any part of Stipe's gameplan was in play. His corners instructions between rounds told you that round 1 did not go as planned.

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1 hour ago, Dai said:

Not a single person would remember the first fight they had by now. That's a complete non factor. 

I think a Lewis/Ngannou fight would do a few hundred thousand buys less, but in the grand scheme of things, that's nothing, and certainly not worth Dana paying 10 million for. Same goes for the Stipe matches

Then I hope Jones holds firm. Because sooner or later fans will grow tired of seeing the best fighters not face each other, and will eventually stop buying Dana's ridiculous chat about them being scared or not wanting the fight. 

Let Ngannou face Lewis then. And let both of them get paid chump change. The truth is, it's as much on the fighters as it is Dana. I'm no fan of Jones outside the cage, but if he stands his ground and refuses to fight for less than he's worth, he'll have my respect on this particular matter.

28 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

Maybe, but that was the kind of 'ive got your number' type performance that would lead me to be incredibly shocked if a 3rd fight went any differently. It was domination.

What part of the gameplan can he possibly have deviated from? apart from clipping Ngannou and thinking he'd hurt him, i dont think any part of Stipe's gameplan was in play. His corners instructions between rounds told you that round 1 did not go as planned.

Well, up until the exchange that ended the fight I thought Miocic was doing well. Granted, he'd had a takedown stuffed, and we'd seen Ngannou expend a lot of energy in doing so. He was looking relatively fatigued, his mouth was open, and Miocic certainly wasn't feeling the pace.

He admitted himself that he got too eager after seeing Francis look winded, and decided to go for it. That's a risky thing to do against a fighter like Ngannou, because it puts you right into the firing line. He elected to trade with him rather than box smart. 

Boxing smart and sticking to the gameplan is the difference between him taking the first big shot Ngannou connected with comfortably, moving with the shot and evading the brunt of it before resetting and moving out of dangers way, and him taking a shot flush because he's been caught midway through an insane exchange. Although, it's now been forgotten that as Stipe got up from that first shot he actually cracked Ngannou and staggered him, which is what tempted him to try and rush in with another right hand, only to get cracked first. It's a crap shoot at that point, and I think either man could have feasibly went down depending on who connected first.

You don't stand and trade with a guy like Ngannou. Miocic never did that in the first fight and he eventually wore the big man down. He deviated from the gameplan.

It's also worth noting that round one went pretty much the same way as round one did last time. The only difference from the first fight to this one was Ngannou evading the takedown and being less active, but while Rogan was losing the place about it, the smart thing to do was to evade and immediately get back to the feet. he expended energy trying to take Miocic's back, before he realised that he didn't really know what to do in that position.

I'm fairly sure a third fight goes differently. Miocic isn't a chump who'll just come back in and try to exchange again. He's learned the hard way that you don't do that. Maybe he figured from the first fight that he could take those shots comfortably in order to land his own.

He was wrong. And paid the price. And Ngannou fought a great fight. I really hope we see them fight again. 

EDIT: And when I say it goes differently, I mean that I don't see Miocic being so tactically naive. I'm not saying Ngannou can't beat Miocic even when he sticks to the gameplan, because he can.

Edited by David
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18 minutes ago, David said:

 

Well, up until the exchange that ended the fight I thought Miocic was doing well. 

he was getting smushed, in 6 minutes he had been dropped twice, landed 3 head strikes, had his legs beaten up and was punished badly for attempting a takedown. It couldnt have been going any worse.

If Miocic' gameplan is to simply wait until Ngannou gets tired enough to take over, especially when Ngannou is sharp and patient like he was Saturday he's gonna get knocked out again. 

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1 minute ago, Egg Shen said:

he was getting smushed, in 6 minutes he had been dropped twice, landed 3 head strikes, had his legs beaten up and was punished badly for attempting a takedown. It couldnt have been going any worse.

If Miocic' gameplan is to simply wait until Ngannou gets tired enough to take over, especially when Ngannou is sharp and patient like he was Saturday he's gonna get knocked out again. 

Cool, if that's how you saw it. I didn't see it that way. I absolutely agree that Ngannou had gotten the better of the fight the first round and a half or whatever, but we've seen Stipe get beaten up before and come back. It's a five round fight, and he's notorious for starting slow and coming into a fight. 

If he doesn't see Ngannou get rocked from that shot he threw just before he gets finished and doesn't dive in looking for a finish then the fight could have went on for God knows how long.

And again, I'm not saying that Stipe would 100% win a rematch. I said before the fight that if Ngannou catches anyone flush he likely puts them away. What I am saying is that if Stipe boxes smart like he did in the first fight, avoids those exchanges and big shots, and we see Ngannou tire (as he was, by the way. Let's not forget that) then it could be a different fight when we hit rounds three, four or five. He stuffed one takedown. Does he still do that after third, fourth, or fifth attempt in later rounds? We know that Stipe can keep attempting them late in the fight. Can Ngannou keep stuffing them? He spent a lot of energy defending just one.

Unless, of course, the greatest heavyweight in the history of the sport has gone from just that to a chump who has no chance? Is that your opinion now? Ngannou "has his number" and there's fuck all he can do about it? If that's the case, then he's not as good as everyone claimed.

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7 minutes ago, David said:

Unless, of course, the greatest heavyweight in the history of the sport has gone from just that to a chump who has no chance? Is that your opinion now? Ngannou "has his number" and there's fuck all he can do about it? If that's the case, then he's not as good as everyone claimed.

I’ve never known a sport like it for stuff like this. Back in the day (yeah yeah I know) I remember it being about not has many losses you have but who they were to and how it happened. Now it seems you’re written off. I’m sure we all remember the talk before Rousey vs Holm. How it was going to be such a mismatch and how brutal it was going to be. After the fight it was all how one dimensional Rousey is and how easy it is to game plan a win against her. Ten minutes prior to being transparent she was the goat on another level to everyone else not on roids. 

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19 minutes ago, David said:

Cool, if that's how you saw it. I didn't see it that way. 

what do you mean, if thats how i saw it? thats what happened😄

...and also bare in mind that Stipe will be close to 40 years old by the time he'll get another crack, plus he's a 40 year old that's been taking heavy damage for years, even in victory Stipe usually gets pretty banged up. You have to realistically think that the wheels might have come off. Im not sure he can go back regroup and come back better than he was Saturday night. If he can, i'll tip my hat to the man.

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The way I see it.

If you want to do what's right for the sport you do Ngannou v Stipe 3

If you wanna create a mouthwatering superfight for the ages in fucking Zaire or somewhere, throw all the money at Jon Jones.

If you are Dana White you do Ngannou v Lewis 2, the rematch nobody is clamouring for.

 

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28 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

what do you mean, if thats how i saw it? thats what happened😄

...and also bare in mind that Stipe will be close to 40 years old by the time he'll get another crack, plus he's a 40 year old that's been taking heavy damage for years, even in victory Stipe usually gets pretty banged up. You have to realistically think that the wheels might have come off. Im not sure he can go back regroup and come back better than he was Saturday night. If he can, i'll tip my hat to the man.

Yup, so you've went from agreeing that Stipe is the greatest heavyweight of all time, to telling us over the past 24 hours or so that you think Francis is ready to dethrone him after just winning the heavyweight title, and that Stipe is now old, been taking damage, and has next to no chance in the rematch.

Cool.

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what? 

I agree Stipe is the greatest heavyweight of all time, that doesn't mean the battles cant catch up with him overnight at 40 years old. It felt like a passing of the torch. One guy on his way up the hill, the other likely on the other side of it.

 

 

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