Paid Members tiger_rick Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 14 minutes ago, garynysmon said: Still feel that AEW falls into the trap of assuming that everyone watching (prime time on a massive cable channel in America by the way), is fully aware of the US indy scene favourites beforehand and don't just fancy watching two hours of pro wrestling. Who are the mythical fans who don't fall into that category? Seriously? They're sure not tapping into some massive pool of lesser spotted "casual" fans. Not suggesting all of their viewers are aware of all the indy scene, I'd never seen OC in my life before their first show, but it's pretty obvious and I think most of their audience can work it out or google it. OC gets a great reaction every week. people know who he is. I'm not sure there is much more of an explanation anyway given he's just a second for BF and hardly wrestles. if he's more than that and it's not obvious why then fine, have a go, but it really doesn't feel like a character that demands fleshing out because he's not the focus of anything. he's a fun, throwaway gimmick seconding on the undercard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, tiger_rick said: Who are the mythical fans who don't fall into that category? Seriously? They're sure not tapping into some massive pool of lesser spotted "casual" fans. Not suggesting all of their viewers are aware of all the indy scene, I'd never seen OC in my life before their first show, but it's pretty obvious and I think most of their audience can work it out or google it. I'm not sure that any concrete figures even exist, so we're all playing this by ear really, but the footprint of AEW on such a major platform as TNT suggests to me that a good number of its audience (both current and potential) would not be considered hardcore fans in 2019/20. When Dynamite started being broadcast it should (unofficially at least) have become a resetting of the product. Assume that everyone watching on TV had not watched the prior PPV's such as All Out etc. Doing so, in a way without insulting the intelligence of the already rabid fanbase, would not have lost a single existing fan but would make it easier for those watching for the first time. This isn't a minor channel such as AXS or Pop we're talking about here, TNT is one of the biggest cable networks in America after all.  I just feel that any product should be as accessible as possible to anyone showing a cursory interest, and just assuming that everyone is aware of the characters and storylines going in is not the way to go about it. If I knew nothing about Kenny Omega beforehand I'd be wondering why this dweeb was a tag team champion, let alone one of the supposed best in the world. Admittedly I'm going on a tangent now as I've had a bee in my bonnet about this and have done for a while, but I can't help feel there's an undercurrent in the current wrestling scene which is just content with how things are and doesn't want to see the fanbase grow beyond a certain point, amid fears that the current style would be 'bastardised' and that match quality becomes less important, as has always been the case when appealing to a casual audience. (Does anyone remember the late 80's or the Attitude Era for consistently good matches or do we all remember the storylines?) This is just a personal view but the ROH style and its stars, for what was considered underground in the early 2000's, in many cases have become among the top boys in the business and the "workrate" style (if such a thing actually exists) is given more prominence now than it ever has. I get the feeling that those who feel that wrestling is better now than it ever has been, would rather not jeapordise that. In some ways I can understand why companies wouldn't. After all, if the current fanbase is happy spending way more of their disposable income on wrestling than any casual fan ever would, then the economics don't lie. I'm not sure where the next generation of fans after this comes from though. Edited February 24, 2020 by garynysmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 I do think AEW could do a lot more to put over who some of there wrestlers are, but at the same time, I don't think it's fair to say that they're guilty of assuming too much knowledge of the audience any more. To continue to use Orange Cassidy as an example, he's been on TV for months. He's been doing the same schtick that entire time, and he's massively over doing it. That's who he is. How much more are they meant to tell us? There are issues when they bring in a guy like Jeff Cobb as a one-and-done without really establishing who he was, or when the announcers do a shitty job explaining who someone is when they debut, but I don't think the company as a whole is assuming that the audiences are watching NJPW, ROH, PWG or anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 (edited) Casual fans won’t expect to know who anyone is other than Jericho, Dustin and Jim Ross. Possibly Moxely and Cody depending how long it’s been since they stopped watching. If they are flicking on wrestling for two hours, they won’t expect to know the full backstories of everyone on the roster. They’ll just be happy seeing some cool moves and easy to watch telly. They especially won’t expect to know someone who is clearly a midcard comedy act.  Casual fans don’t over analyse it like we do.  Jeff Cobb was brought in as a bounty hunter by Jericho to take on a big name. That’s about as much of a solid intro as you could except. Over one episode we went from knowing nothing to knowing the world champion trusts him to damage the number one contender. He didn’t just pop up with no explanation Edited February 24, 2020 by UK Kat Von D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 Case in point - a friend of mine stopped watching WWE years ago, apart from watching the Royal Rumble at a mate's place, and I don't think he's done that for a couple of years. He watched TNA for a few years because it was on Freeview. He messaged me after one of the first episodes of Dynamite to say that Private Party vs. The Young Bucks was amazing, he didn't message me to tell me that he didn't know who Private Party were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 There was an interesting bit on F4W recently, where Alvarez talked about how AEW are letting people continue the gimmicks they've done on the indies - and how it makes a huge difference, as they've been (for the most part) honing these characters for a long time. And the characters are getting over fairly quickly and they're building stars. Now, they're still not great at explaining them, but they're improving - Cobb at least got a brief highlight video and was talked about before he turned up. That's an improvement over how they handled The Butcher and The Blade. That said, I think we over-worry about this. When I started watching wrestling, I didn't need everyone's backgrounds explained. I didn't assume I'd know everyone immediately. Cassidy has the top two selling AEW t-shirts at the moment, so I don't think they've got a major problem. It's only when they've been expected to be a big deal as a surprise it's been a big issue. And I hope they hold off him doing something big as long as possible (other than his devastating strikes). As for who should take the title off Jericho... Mox right now is as good a shout as anyone, although agreed on the suggestion of a short reign and dropping it straight back to Jericho. Long-term, though, I think it should be Omega - it's felt like they're beginning to get him right again, and if the Iron Man match with Pac next week gets him further back on track, he'll be in a good position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 I guess it's the same as with TV shows really. When they start, you don't really get intro packages on each character. You might get some flashbacks if they feel it necessary to drive the story, but on the whole the script writers are in charge of showing the audience who their characters are through dialogue and actions. Wrestling is basically the same. Most gimmicks speak for themselves and they should really. While I appreciate long-term storytelling etc, most of the characters should speak something to anyone at any given time. Not just those who followed them previously or online or whatever else. A successful wrestler manages to get their character over in a single promo or match to some level at least. You don't need to know every single little detail about a wrestler to enjoy their work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members DEF Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 I think some folk struggle with WHY Orange Cassidy wrestles the way he does and struggle to get over that AEW have made zero attempt to explain that. Not me though I think hes got the greatest gimmick in years and he could still do it when he's 90 and I had no idea who he was until AEW. I see no need for Jericho to drop the title for ages. When he's ready I think if Hangman continues to get over with this arse kicker beer drinking everyman gimmick then eventually he would be a good shout a year from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 41 minutes ago, Chris B said: That said, I think we over-worry about this. When I started watching wrestling, I didn't need everyone's backgrounds explained. I didn't assume I'd know everyone immediately. Good point. Gimmicks weren't particularly complicated back then but I never stopped much to wonder why a police man was wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 How much needs explaining, though? I've seen Orange Cassidy on the indies for years, and at not one of those shows did anyone stop and say, "Oh, by the way, Orange Cassidy wrestles this way because X, Y or Z". It might have been implied from time to time, but there was never a "Orange Cassidy is..." moment, and I think it's disingenuous to pretend that people wouldn't "get it" without one. I don't really know what needs explaining - there are interpretations of the character as being perpetually tired/hungover, or whatever, but he's a chilled out guy who does the bare minimum to get by. He doesn't particularly care about wrestling, but just so happens to be great at it when he needs to be. I wish that his gimmick hadn't been reduced so much to "he puts his hands in his pockets", but then it's a shorthand for his whole character, and putting his hands in his pockets always gets a ridiculous pop, so it clearly works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 1 hour ago, BomberPat said: There are issues when they bring in a guy like Jeff Cobb as a one-and-done without really establishing who he was, or when the announcers do a shitty job explaining who someone is when they debut, but I don't think the company as a whole is assuming that the audiences are watching NJPW, ROH, PWG or anything else. Really? They set up exactly why he was coming in, he came in at the end of one episode and hit his big move, he came back the next week, they recapped the previous week, set up exactly who he is, Olympic credentials, titles outside AEW, etc. They discussed his motivation at length. Yes, Jericho's initial announcement would only get a reaction from people who knew who he was, but they followed that up well. I think the worst job they've done is with the Elite where it's only really started becoming obvious since Hangman started drinking. Before that, there were all sorts of references to them without ever really defining them or their relationship in the parameters of AEW on-screen. There I think you could accuse them of assuming everyone watched BTE on YouTube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB6937 Posted February 24, 2020 Share Posted February 24, 2020 20 minutes ago, BomberPat said: How much needs explaining, though? I've seen Orange Cassidy on the indies for years, and at not one of those shows did anyone stop and say, "Oh, by the way, Orange Cassidy wrestles this way because X, Y or Z". It might have been implied from time to time, but there was never a "Orange Cassidy is..." moment, and I think it's disingenuous to pretend that people wouldn't "get it" without one. I don't really know what needs explaining - there are interpretations of the character as being perpetually tired/hungover, or whatever, but he's a chilled out guy who does the bare minimum to get by. He doesn't particularly care about wrestling, but just so happens to be great at it when he needs to be. I wish that his gimmick hadn't been reduced so much to "he puts his hands in his pockets", but then it's a shorthand for his whole character, and putting his hands in his pockets always gets a ridiculous pop, so it clearly works. I find him entertaining. Does the character stand up if I sit there and think 'why's he doing that?' .. probably not. But do I care? Absolutely not. You can have multi-layered characters with backgrounds who are boring as fuck, so it's not always about the 'explanation' or a character having a proper story behind them. It's all in the execution. If we want logical reasoning behind every single character then wrestling isn't the place to be looking for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, tiger_rick said: Really? They set up exactly why he was coming in, he came in at the end of one episode and hit his big move, he came back the next week, they recapped the previous week, set up exactly who he is, Olympic credentials, titles outside AEW, etc. They discussed his motivation at length. Yes, Jericho's initial announcement would only get a reaction from people who knew who he was, but they followed that up well. I think the worst job they've done is with the Elite where it's only really started becoming obvious since Hangman started drinking. Before that, there were all sorts of references to them without ever really defining them or their relationship in the parameters of AEW on-screen. There I think you could accuse them of assuming everyone watched BTE on YouTube. All a fair point, actually, and they'd definitely learned from Butcher & The Blade in terms of establishing someone on their "shock" debut. I think I must have missed some of that episode, as I didn't catch all of that. And years of NXT viewing has made me immune to the phrase "won championships all over the world" or any synonym thereof. So Cobb wasn't the best example. 1 minute ago, DavidB6937 said: I find him entertaining. Does the character stand up if I sit there and think 'why's he doing that?' .. probably not. But do I care? Absolutely not. You can have multi-layered characters with backgrounds who are boring as fuck, so it's not always about the 'explanation' or a character having a proper story behind them. It's all in the execution. If we want logical reasoning behind every single character then wrestling isn't the place to be looking for it. I'm not sure there's need to ask why Cassidy acts the way he does, but if you were to ask, I'd say that it's because more often than not it works out well for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Lorne Malvo Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 All this talk about the casual fan not understanding x, y and z does my head in. The casual fan isn't fucking braindead, and they don't care about the intricacies of each character. They see Orange Cassidy, think he's cool/funny, and pop for his signature shit. They don't stop to go 'who is this guy and whats his motivation?' When I first started watching, the backstory of Val Venis wasn't explained every week, yet I didn't turn the telly off going 'dont get the towel thing, not for me'. This idea that everything needs to be explained and laid out for the 'casual fan' is daft and patronising. Just because we're fucking geeks on a wrestling forum who like to overanalyse everything, doesn't mean Dave, Angie and little Tommy are too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted February 24, 2020 Paid Members Share Posted February 24, 2020 My favourite explanation for Orange Cassidy has just been "He's a wrestler that doesn't want to be a wrestler". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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