Acceptable behaviour at live shows

[David]

5 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

I think the 'What exactly is PC?' point is valid as it certainly seems to some that being 'non-PC' automatically means being racist/sexist/homophobic etc.

That's because the people who mump & moan about "political correctness" are usually the ones who are getting grief for being racist, sexist or homophobic. They just don't think they are, and try to pass their shite off as banter or whatever.

I've never seen someone describing themselves as "non-PC" who isn't at least one of the three things mentioned above. 

There isn't "PC" and "non-PC," there's being a muppet, and not being a muppet. Everyone can make the choice on which side of the fence they wish to fall on that one.

9 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

However, wrestling always WAS immune from the normal rules of society - watch ECW, watch old-school Memphis, watch Attitude-Era WWF... shit, watch 80's WWF..... look at old school British wrestling posters - 'The Gay One', 'Busty Bombshell' etc etc. 

No, a lot of wrestling back then was a great example of the worst aspects of society. There was a lot of that "back in the day" and it should be looked upon with great embarrassment to be honest, not misty-eyed nostalgia. Old wrestling posters featuring patter about gay folk or busty women are a relic, they're a sign of the times back then.

Society has changed for the better, and like it or not, wrestling has to do the same. 

16 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

It was racist, it was sexist, it was homophobic, it was all the things that would be considered 'politically incorrect' and it was never 'right' BUT it was accepted. People knew that wrestling would play on their prejudices and always go for the lowest common denominator. Wrestling attracted the working classes, the people who WOULD go to shows to call the heels names and shout all night.... and it was incredibly popular. It doesn't mean that all those people were racist, sexist, homophobic etc [although I'm certain there were those people who absolutely were] it just meant that there was an accepted understanding about what was being presented within the context of the show.

Holy fuck, you're talking as if this was a good thing! It was fucking terrible! It should never have been accepted then, and it sure as fuck shouldn't be entertained nowadays. 

18 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

People didn't call the wrestlers names to elicit a chuckle from their mates either - although I'm certain that's why they do it now - they did it because they hated that wrestler and the people around them either did it even more or disagreed with them and cheered loudly to show their support to the wrestler that fan was putting down.

Come on mate, anyone who's at a show that legit "hates" a wrestler is usually a bit soft in the head, aren't they? Everyone knows it's a show. Why would anyone "hate" a performer for fuck sake? If anyone is at a show and they're actually full of enough anger and hate to spew abuse at a wrestler they probably need to be seeing someone about it.

I think the thing you're missing here is that attending a wrestling show is supposed to be fun, for everyone who's bought a ticket. Boo, cheer, take part in the ridiculous chants that go on, admire the athletic abilities and get drawn into the storylines by all means.

Where the problems start is when we get the morons who think that they're entitled to act like absolute pricks because they slapped down a tenner for a ticket. That's not the case. Civilised society rules still apply, and if you or anyone else who's full of hate, or letting off steam and hurling abuse at a performer thinks they can not only annoy the performer involved but also infringe on the enjoyment of other fans who've also slapped down their ten pound note then it's probably time to look for something else to do and let everyone else enjoy their night of entertainment.

[Snitsky's back acne]

4 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Have to disagree there.

People are still displaying primitive emotions and instincts (for me, a major point of proof is that kids still massively enjoy wrestling, and they're not a demographic known for holding back on basic emotions when excited); what's under discussion is how those emotions and instincts are expressed. Nobody's saying to not yell censure and disapproval, just that there are better ways to do it now. The idea that racism/homophobia/sexism is the most fundamental way to express them doesn't hold water for me - society constantly changes, and if there's one thing there's evidence of, it's that people's values change, even on a basic, reactive level.

Put it this way: back in the day, you had old women putting bricks in their handbags to smack the villains with. And black wrestlers frequently got the N-word thrown at them - they're even audible on TV. But in this day and age, it's very rare for people to instinctually do these things now, which suggests that audiences can be and have been conditioned to behave differently, and still react viscerally to wrestling.

Good because I couldn't be any clearer in repeatedly saying that's not what I'm advocating.

Okay, let's take our little old lady in Cleethorpes example shall we? Should she have been thrown out/asked to leave/reprimanded because she was telling the wrestlers to 'Fuck off back to Norwich' and calling them 'wankers' near little children? After all, this particular event was not an 18+ show, there were quite a few others kids there and I'm sure the Mum was not impressed. Also at the show was a small group of vocal drunk guys [I'd say mid-to-late twenties] who were shouting obscenities at the wrestlers.
Thoughts? 


 

[David]

4 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Okay, let's take our little old lady in Cleethorpes example shall we? Should she have been thrown out/asked to leave/reprimanded because she was telling the wrestlers to 'Fuck off back to Norwich' and calling them 'wankers' near little children? After all, this particular event was not an 18+ show, there were quite a few others kids there and I'm sure the Mum was not impressed. Also at the show was a small group of vocal drunk guys [I'd say mid-to-late twenties] who were shouting obscenities at the wrestlers.
Thoughts? 

Both should have been fucked out for being a nuisance at a show where children were present. 

[Carbomb]

4 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Good because I couldn't be any clearer in repeatedly saying that's not what I'm advocating.

Except you haven't. Sorry, but the fact that you keep saying people are misinterpreting you, making arguments you haven't, etc. should give you some indication that maybe you're not being clear - this many intelligent people debating you on points you say are not what you're saying can't be just a random coincidence.

If all you're saying is "people shouldn't be kicked out/censured for swearing at wrestling shows", then why even raise homophobia/racism/sexism in the first place?

 

[Snitsky's back acne]

9 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

It doesn’t because you are, as you have done a number of times in this thread, worming around and retroactively applying context and nuance to original posts that didn’t have them.

Your original paragraph mentions nothing about live attendance, TV ratings. 

 

You're right, my original paragraph doesn't mention TV ratings or live attendance. It was massive and hugely unforgivable oversight on my part.
 Had anyone asked me to clarify what I meant [which you did], I would have told them [which I did].

Still, it's nice to see that despite me not originally stating specifically what I meant you've just assumed you know what I meant instead.

 
 

[Accident Prone]

9 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Okay, let's take our little old lady in Cleethorpes example shall we? Should she have been thrown out/asked to leave/reprimanded because she was telling the wrestlers to 'Fuck off back to Norwich' and calling them 'wankers' near little children? After all, this particular event was not an 18+ show, there were quite a few others kids there and I'm sure the Mum was not impressed. Also at the show was a small group of vocal drunk guys [I'd say mid-to-late twenties] who were shouting obscenities at the wrestlers.
Thoughts? 


 

  

19 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

Do you know what you rarely, if ever, hear?

"Oh I was so upset at the old lady in the crowd using the F-word and making 'wanker' sign language at the bad guy".

Do you know what you do often hear?

"I was quite uncomfortable with the guy in the Enzo t-shirt calling that valet a slut for the entire match"

"Uh, you can't say anything these days. It's PC GONE MAD".

Now I'm not saying that's you SBA, I'm saying that from own personal experience of talking about wrestling online (and IRL) for the past 18 years. Your definition of 'woke' and 'PC culture' is so slanted. 

You remind of an infamous poster on the Download Festival forums years and years ago, who couldn't understand why it was unacceptable to shit yourself at the fest. 

"It's a festival, we're meant to be losing our inhibitions and going wild!" he screamed. "It's....PC GONE MAD!".

 

[Snitsky's back acne]

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

 

If all you're saying is "people shouldn't be kicked out/censured for swearing at wrestling shows", then why even raise homophobia/racism/sexism in the first place?

 

I didn't.
 

[BomberPat]

7 minutes ago, BigDaddyB said:

The vulgar nature of the audience in ECW would probably mean it wouldn't last long if it was around in 2020. However, the audience and the product have had a major impact on the wrestling business. New York and Chicago fans who would be perceived as cunts due to the behaviour, have created some of the most memorable atmospheres.

For every genuinely great chant, there's ten "she's a crackwhore", "show your tits" or "Jason takes it up the ass". I'd sacrifice the possibility of ever recreating the atmosphere of Lawler vs. Dreamer - one of my favourite ECW matches - if it meant never having to subject people to those chants.
 

A couple of examples that maybe people will consider worrying about as being overly "PC" or whatever, but are all part of the reality of a wrestling show;

• The vast majority of shows I've worked, we have been paid by the event/venue to provide entertainment - meaning they handle ticket sales etc., and means that I don't have the authority to kick people out if they use slurs or abusive language. The second show I ever worked was attended by a rugby club outing, all of whom were drunk, loud, obnoxious and offensive, which ruined the show by intimidating the families that had come to watch, and basically meant that every other member of the crowd stayed quiet, rather than engaging with the show as they normally would.
   
• I've worked shows in secondary schools, where the kids attending are shouting homophobic slurs at wrestlers. It's possible that there were also LGBT kids in that audience who were effectively forced to sit in silence while a room full of their classmates yelled homophobic abuse without being punished for it - precisely because of the kind of attitude you're talking about; it was "blowing off steam", it's all part of the show. But what does that tell the LGBT kids, already unsure of their place in the world? That they're the acceptable punchline for everyone else's abuse. From a moral point of view, I don't want any of our customers, or our talent, to feel uncomfortable or unsafe in the environment our shows create. From a business point of view, I don't want anyone feeling so uncomfortable, unsafe or offended that they don't buy a ticket for the next show, or go and tell all their mates not to. Sometimes my nephews and nieces have come to watch my shows, or I've taken them to watch other wrestling - I don't want them to learn that shouting this kind of abuse is acceptable anywhere. And before anyone steps in and says "I wasn't talking about being homophobic", I will extend that to include calling someone a "fat cunt" as well. Because if it's acceptable for dad to say it at The Wrestling, it's acceptable for Little Billy to say it in the playground. 

 

• Just now, Snitsky's back acne said:

  
  Okay, let's take our little old lady in Cleethorpes example shall we? Should she have been thrown out/asked to leave/reprimanded because she was telling the wrestlers to 'Fuck off back to Norwich' and calling them 'wankers' near little children?
   

  if it was advertised as a family or family-friendly show, yes, absolutely. You don't take your kids to the panto or to see a magician and expect to be sat next to someone's Granny telling them to fuck off. If I were the promoter responsible for that show, I would fully expect to receive complaints from punters for not having dealt with it. That's the reality of running family events. We routinely get complaints about content far less obviously unacceptable than that.

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

I didn't.
 

Alright, my mis-type: why make it a point of your argument in the first place?

[wordsfromlee]

18 hours ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Yeah it is. It always was. I've lost count of the amount of shows I went to where fans would yell the WORST things at the wrestlers and the wrestlers would call the fans the WORST things. It was, rightly or wrongly, accepted as being part of going to a wrestling show. If somebody said something offensive to a wrestler the wrestler would say something equally or more offensive back. 

You maybe not have explicitly said racism/homophobia/etc but it seems to be implied by the use of THE WORST.

If that’s not implied then what is “the worst” if it’s not racism or homophobia?

[Snitsky's back acne]

15 minutes ago, David said:

 

Holy fuck, you're talking as if this was a good thing! It was fucking terrible! It should never have been accepted then, and it sure as fuck shouldn't be entertained nowadays. 

 

I didn't think I could have made it any clearer when I said 'It was never right'. 
How have you managed to get 'you're talking like it's a good thing' from me going 'It was never right'?

It WAS accepted. I can't change that. It's an uncomfortable truth. It should never have been accepted, but it was.
It is an easily provable fact. As recently as last year it was STILL accepted in Mexico [see: the Cody incident].

It doesn't make it right.
Do you need me to put bells and whistles on it to make it clearer?


 

[BomberPat]

It would help if you weren't in one breath calling it unacceptable, but in the next breath harking back to the same period as a simpler time where wrestling/wrestling crowds behaved without consideration of some ill-defined "PC" norm, and wrestling was better/more popular than it is now. It's a confusing rhetorical tightrope walk you're doing.

I suppose the question, if I'm being generous, is where is the line of what we should consider acceptable at a wrestling show. You and I seem to disagree, at least, as to where that line sits in relation to "loudly swearing and making obscene gestures in front of children". 

[Snitsky's back acne]

11 minutes ago, David said:

Both should have been fucked out for being a nuisance at a show where children were present. 

Except nobody outwardly [apart from Mum] seemed to think of them as a nuisance.
Everyone else that I saw [and obviously I did not see everyone in the building] was either laughing at the old woman getting so involved or enjoying the interplay between the drunk guys and the wrestlers. 

[Carbomb]

One of the things that's been forgotten in this discussion is that "acceptable behaviour" hinges also on the show that the promoters are putting on. If a promoter's putting on a family show, then swearing and obscenity should automatically be considered off-limits for people who should know better. 

If you're at Triple X or ICW, however, I don't think anyone would object.

[Snitsky's back acne]

12 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Alright, my mis-type: why make it a point of your argument in the first place?

I didn't. I only started to include it as a response to those who WERE making it the point of their arguments.
See how easy it is to misinterpret stuff?