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Hannibal Scorch

Acceptable behaviour at live shows

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7 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

 

So if your argument is that wrestling was bigger in the '90s in England because of camp shows 

 

 

It's not, but people are making up their own arguments now so it seems a little redundant.

'Wrestling' [not 'in the UK' - 'wrestling' as a whole] WAS bigger in the late 90's. Wrestling in the UK at that time ran a lot of shows - how many, we don't know because there were less avenues to report them and people were less inclined to do so. We know more about the amount of shows being run in this country now because it is documented more. Wrestling attendance in this country is undoubtedly up since that time, and there are more wrestlers and wrestling promotions in this country by far.
Wrestling, as a whole, was in a recession and dead on its arse in the mid 90's - the UK included. 

However 'wrestling' [again, NOT just 'wrestling in the UK'] is nowhere near as popular as it was 20 years ago in terms of live attendance, TV ratings etc. 
Wrestling in the UK has obviously been a damn site worse but it has seen an overall attendance decline and many promotions close over the past 5 years or so.

Can that be correlated to a change in social attitudes by those consuming wrestling? It's probably impossible to categorically state that but, if one was inclined to look into it, it may be a worthwhile avenue to explore.  I honestly think there is some merit to it though - and that is not me 'advocating' the worst aspects of wrestling and wrestling fandom, despite what anyone thinks. 

Personal attitudes towards acceptable conduct at shows aside, there has been a significant change in how wrestling in the UK and North America has been presented and received over the past several years. I am not saying this is a negative - in many regards it is massively positive - but there IS a reason that wrestling, as an entity, is less popular now than it was. 
 

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24 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

I did say right at the start that I knew I would cop shit from my initial post - the forum has far exceeded even my expectations on that score. Congratulations.
 

You haven't just "copped shit", though. You've had several people make well-reasoned, cogent arguments in detail through several posts, from various angles, and citing either stats or experience. It's not just insults or shouting you down.

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7 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

[again, NOT just 'wrestling in the UK'] 
 

Sorry, I assumed that because this thread was about an incident at a show in the UK, on the UKFF, that we might be talking about wrestling in the UK.

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17 hours ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

I know I'm gonna cop shit for this but, fuck it... 

Wrestling has become incredibly sanitised and 'woke' over the past several years and it is massively to its detriment rather than its benefit.





 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:


Personal attitudes towards acceptable conduct at shows aside, there has been a significant change in how wrestling in the UK and North America has been presented and received over the past several years. I am not saying this is a negative - in many regards it is massively positive - but there IS a reason that wrestling, as an entity, is less popular now than it was. 
 

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2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

You haven't just "copped shit", though. You've had several people make well-reasoned, cogent arguments in detail through several posts, from various angles, and citing either stats or experience. It's not just insults or shouting you down.

Agreed.

However, I have also copped a fair amount of shit. No problem with that - as I said initially, I was expecting it.

It becomes a problem when people start making their own arguments based on what they think the other person means. It's always going to be the case with online forums where face-to-face interactions are negated and people don't know each other. I'm guilty of it too before anyone thinks I'm just passing blame here.

 

 


 

 

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11 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Sorry, I assumed that because this thread was about an incident at a show in the UK, on the UKFF, that we might be talking about wrestling in the UK.

Assumption has been the problem quite a lot throughout this thread. 

In fact Super Bacon has just proved that with his post as he is taking two very different statements and assuming I've been talking about the same thing. 

Edited by Snitsky's back acne

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17 hours ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Wrestling isn't PC. Never has been. It's a low brow form of entertainment that caters to peoples most basic emotions as a means of making money. 

Uh oh, I didn't even have to read the rest of the thread to know this wasn't going to end well. What exactly is "PC" in all honesty? It's only a term I ever see or hear used by the red tops and the Daily Mail, or the old, uneducated, or completely fucking moronic.

Even the most edgiest wrestling show, held in a nightclub and with an adult audience shouldn't be immune from the normal rules of society, should it? I mean, if I rocked up into a nightclub and called someone a fat cunt I'd get lobbed out sharpish, and rightfully so. Obviously there's a bit of leeway because you're attending a show, but honestly, see if you don't think your insult is going to elicit a chuckle from your fellow fans and maybe even a barely-disguised smirk from the target, don't bother. You'll just end up looking like a tosser.

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30 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

However 'wrestling' [again, NOT just 'wrestling in the UK'] is nowhere near as popular as it was 20 years ago in terms of live attendance, TV ratings etc. 

I'd go with this tbh, but not necessarily because wrestling is more 'woke'.

Most of the top storylines in the Attitude Era would be acceptable (albeit watered down) in 2020, age old stories like the rebellious employee overcoming the overbearing boss etc are evergreen.

Its just the shite like bra and panties matches, Lawler shouting puppies and the tawdry Russo-esque filler that wouldn't. And in reality that's no bad thing as even then it seemed quite childish and pushing the boundaries of taste for a company that likes to think of itself as a Disney-eque entity.

The wrestling industry itself has changed, but its done so because it always follows the industry leader (the WWE). The WWE has made a decision to concentrate on longer matches, more emphasis on workrate etc which is not really my cup of tea at all.

But it was a conscious decision to cater to the hardcore audience that have, and always will be there, and are wrestling obsessed enough to spend a large chunk of their disposable income on wrestling as opposed to a tendency to dip in and out of the product when it appeals.

You can rightly question if this means that attracting casual fans will be so much harder in future, but there you go.

We can all moan about over-produced TV, scripted promos and good matches but involving wrestlers no-one gives a fuck about.

But in reality, that can't be pinned on shifts in what's acceptable in 2020 and what's not.  What made wrestling popular during its early and late 90's heydays would still be achievable now if they wanted to. 

Edited by garynysmon

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46 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Assumption has been the problem quite a lot throughout this thread. 

In fact Super Bacon has just proved that with his post as he is taking two very different statements and assuming I've been talking about the same thing. 

You go ahead and explain the difference in the two quotes then.

The first one quite literally contradicts the second.

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46 minutes ago, David said:

Uh oh, I didn't even have to read the rest of the thread to know this wasn't going to end well. What exactly is "PC" in all honesty? It's only a term I ever see or hear used by the red tops and the Daily Mail, or the old, uneducated, or completely fucking moronic.

Even the most edgiest wrestling show, held in a nightclub and with an adult audience shouldn't be immune from the normal rules of society, should it? I mean, if I rocked up into a nightclub and called someone a fat cunt I'd get lobbed out sharpish, and rightfully so. Obviously there's a bit of leeway because you're attending a show, but honestly, see if you don't think your insult is going to elicit a chuckle from your fellow fans and maybe even a barely-disguised smirk from the target, don't bother. You'll just end up looking like a tosser.

I think the 'What exactly is PC?' point is valid as it certainly seems to some that being 'non-PC' automatically means being racist/sexist/homophobic etc.

However, wrestling always WAS immune from the normal rules of society - watch ECW, watch old-school Memphis, watch Attitude-Era WWF... shit, watch 80's WWF..... look at old school British wrestling posters - 'The Gay One', 'Busty Bombshell' etc etc. 
It was racist, it was sexist, it was homophobic, it was all the things that would be considered 'politically incorrect' and it was never 'right' BUT it was accepted. People knew that wrestling would play on their prejudices and always go for the lowest common denominator. Wrestling attracted the working classes, the people who WOULD go to shows to call the heels names and shout all night.... and it was incredibly popular. It doesn't mean that all those people were racist, sexist, homophobic etc [although I'm certain there were those people who absolutely were] it just meant that there was an accepted understanding about what was being presented within the context of the show.

People didn't call the wrestlers names to elicit a chuckle from their mates either - although I'm certain that's why they do it now - they did it because they hated that wrestler and the people around them either did it even more or disagreed with them and cheered loudly to show their support to the wrestler that fan was putting down.

Again, I am NOT advocating racism, sexism, homophobia etc.
I AM saying that this rose-coloured view of wrestling as a utopia of love and acceptance where everyone can feel like they belong goes against everything wrestling is/was.... and again, I am NOT saying it shouldn't be like that. I'm saying that it has adversely effected wrestling in regards to overall appeal and how it is enjoyed by the audience.

Do we go back to all the things I mentioned above? No. Of course not.
However moving wrestling away from going after people's most primitive emotions and instincts turns it into politely watching an athletic display - and while that's impressive and can be enjoyable it's not, in my opinion, 'pro wrestling'.

I went to a show a few months ago in Cleethorpes and there was an old lady at ringside with her husband and she was calling the wrestlers names and telling them to 'fuck off' [I'm sure she told Ricky Knight Jr to 'Fuck off back to Norwich!' at one point]. She would stand up and get in their faces and make the 'wanker' hand gesture at them. It certainly appeared from my perspective that everyone around her found her antics enjoyable, some even joined in. Equally, I'm sure the Mum with the two little kids wasn't impressed... but that's wrestling. The old lady went to enjoy herself. She didn't seem to care about botched moves or the star rating of the match - she went to give the wrestlers she didn't like shit and cheer and slap hands with the ones she did... and she seemed to be having the time of her life. Maybe that makes her a 'shitty person', I dunno...

 
Oh, and Super Bacon - 'massively to it's detriment' was in reference to how it has effected live attendance, TV ratings etc.
'I'm not saying it's a negative' is, as I said, in regards to how it is presented and received by the audience [i.e people NOT yelling homophobic or racist things and promotions excluding characters that are negative stereotypes etc], 

Two totally different things.
Hope that clears it up for you.





 

Edited by Snitsky's back acne

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16 hours ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Exactly - it's also not something you would necessarily say/do in your every day life away from the comedy club.
A comedian goes on stage knowing/expecting to be heckled and they have the 'power' to fire back. Same as wrestling.
It's an unwritten 'rule' when you go to a comedy club that these things will likely happen. Same with wrestling.
Can you imagine a comedian going 'Please don't heckle me as it will really hurt my feelings and effect my mental health'...? Hell, Jimmy Carr's heckle comebacks are more brutal than the heckles he receives! It's understood to be part of his show.

It's the club/orgy rule - you don't like the comedian? Don't go to the show. Don't expect Roy Chubby Brown to change his material because you are offended by it.
 

 

Speaking as a comedian . . . we tolerate it.  It's not part of the show.

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10 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Do we go back to all the things I mentioned above? No. Of course not.
However moving wrestling away from going after people's most primitive emotions and instincts turns it into politely watching an athletic display - and while that's impressive and can be enjoyable it's not, in my opinion, 'pro wrestling'.

Have to disagree there.

People are still displaying primitive emotions and instincts (for me, a major point of proof is that kids still massively enjoy wrestling, and they're not a demographic known for holding back on basic emotions when excited); what's under discussion is how those emotions and instincts are expressed. Nobody's saying to not yell censure and disapproval, just that there are better ways to do it now. The idea that racism/homophobia/sexism is the most fundamental way to express them doesn't hold water for me - society constantly changes, and if there's one thing there's evidence of, it's that people's values change, even on a basic, reactive level.

Put it this way: back in the day, you had old women putting bricks in their handbags to smack the villains with. And black wrestlers frequently got the N-word thrown at them - they're even audible on TV. But in this day and age, it's very rare for people to instinctually do these things now, which suggests that audiences can be and have been conditioned to behave differently, and still react viscerally to wrestling.

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I can see both sides of the coin. Wrestling, works best with audience participation. Some of the most memorable moments in wrestling, have been because of the audiences involvement in a match. CM Punk vs John Cena, Hogan v Rock and so on.

The vulgar nature of the audience in ECW would probably mean it wouldn't last long if it was around in 2020. However, the audience and the product have had a major impact on the wrestling business. New York and Chicago fans who would be perceived as cunts due to the behaviour, have created some of the most memorable atmospheres.

No person should be subject to abusive behaviour, wrestler or fan. No one should be racist, homophobic or face discrimination. However it can be dangerous to dictate how fans should behave. Pro wrestling is great when the audience is immersed and reactive.   

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Do you know what you rarely, if ever, hear?

"Oh I was so upset at the old lady in the crowd using the F-word and making 'wanker' sign language at the bad guy".

Do you know what you do often hear?

"I was quite uncomfortable with the guy in the Enzo t-shirt calling that valet a slut for the entire match"

"Uh, you can't say anything these days. It's PC GONE MAD".

Now I'm not saying that's you SBA, I'm saying that from own personal experience of talking about wrestling online (and IRL) for the past 18 years. Your definition of 'woke' and 'PC culture' is so slanted. 

You remind of an infamous poster on the Download Festival forums years and years ago, who couldn't understand why it was unacceptable to shit yourself at the fest. 

"It's a festival, we're meant to be losing our inhibitions and going wild!" he screamed. "It's....PC GONE MAD!".

Edited by Accident Prone

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18 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said:

Oh, and Super Bacon - 'massively to it's detriment' was in reference to how it has effected live attendance, TV ratings etc.
'I'm not saying it's a negative' is, as I said, in regards to how it is presented and received by the audience [i.e people NOT yelling homophobic or racist things and promotions excluding characters that are negative stereotypes etc], 

Two totally different things.
Hope that clears it up for you.





 

It doesn’t because you are, as you have done a number of times in this thread, worming around and retroactively applying context and nuance to original posts that didn’t have them.

Your original paragraph mentions nothing about live attendance, TV ratings. 

 

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