Paid Members Accident Prone Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 If there's anyone on this forum who represents that Stewart Lee 'The Money Is Mine...' bit more than anyone else, it's MPDTT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 37 minutes ago, Loki said: You keep saying that Blair's Third Way is defunct, but his way of making the Labour movement electable, returning huge majorities and keeping the Tories out of power seems like a fucking good model to follow right now. Several of us have made this point several times, Loki, and you appear to be glossing over it: the Third Way/New Labour direction made Labour electable in 1997, but it also got them voted out in 2010. Are you saying that Brown standing again or David Milliband or Yvette Cooper or any other big-name Labour centrist would've got them back in again straight away? New Labour/Blair/Brown are the very reason why people say Labour crashed the economy and can't be trusted to run it. Conversely, genuinely socialist politicians haven't had a say in the running of this country for 40 years. And it's not like Corbyn was proposing anything particularly radical or "hard Left" as the Right and Centre like to make out. He was proposing measures and policies that Scandinavian countries have put into practice to the massive benefit of their populations, and get lauded here as "social democratic". What Labour also need to do next time is challenge this absolute lie that the Tories are good at managing the economy. They're clearly not, when they adopt an austerity approach that assumes that all public spending is 50% waste, ignoring the principle of fiscal multipliers where there's actually a return on investment that feeds back into the economy, or prevents greater expenditure. They've actually shrunk the economy and its ability to regenerate itself by treating a country like it was a company. Case in point: flood defences. The Tories in their fiscal wisdom decided to cut back on those, and what happened? Floods. Which did damage. Which the government then had to spend eight times the amount they tried to save in order to fix it. The NHS demonstrably returns on investment. As does welfare. And the Tories cut back on both of those. Labour as they currently are also need to really re-think their manifesto. It was too much, especially as they hadn't done anything to challenge the perception that Labour are profligate and irresponsible in government. They should've gone down the route of strategic investment, cutting back on certain things and investing in others. That's what Portugal did, and guess how their economy's doing now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Accident Prone said: Again, this is fine if you're debating the finer details of the immigration manifesto or looking at where all those tax dollars go to. But if someone called into O'Brian's show and said "I AM VOTING FOR THE TORIES BECAUSE LEAVE MEANS LEAVE AND I DON'T LIKE ALL THESE NON-WHITES IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD AND I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE REPERCUSSIONS TO THE NHS" he would absolutely be in his rights to tell that person to fuck off. You can't debate rationally with bigots, racists and cunts. That person still gets a vote, so your attitude is just going to see you more upset every time there’s an election. Left-wing, middle-class millennials screaming that everyone who doesn’t vote Labour is a stupid racist who has been fooled by the evil Jew media is a huge part of the problem. The echo chamber convinces you that you and your likeminded friends are the norm and that everyone different is strange and vile, too disgusting to consider as a worthwhile human being - you cast them as The Other, the way they do with foreigners/dolemites/blacks/gaylords/whoever. And the results show that you’re wrong. You’re the outlier, not them. The echo chamber crew just isn’t big enough to win an election, as has been proven every time out over the last five years. And the obnoxious preaching just alienates everyone outside of that psychographic. The “we really care about poor people” sentiment, for example, rings false when followed by the “FUCK U POOR PEOPLE WHY U VOTE WRONG U IDIOTS OR EVIL CUNTS UR A TURKEY VOTING FOR CHRISTMAS” type stuff we see today. Pretending to be compassionate while treating politics like an angry football rivalry ain’t working. The sort of people that have become big, loud Labour supporters in this decade are a niche of the electorate, and have done fuck all to make Labour accessible to anyone outside their niche. They’ve made Labour the party for Citizen Smith. Labour has been hijacked by the likes of Owen Jones, and crying that everyone who doesn’t like Owen Jones is a bigot might get retweets but it’s never, ever going to turn this situation around. If you really care about improving things, it’s time to get some perspective and let go of the myopic, dogmatic, sixth former idealism. You can’t brute force that Labour Party into power. Gonna have to actually engage with the people who voted conservative, or didn’t vote at all. If you really care, you can’t just keep trying to Other them. They will just respond by trouncing you in elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members PunkStep Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 19 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Can you quote the examples you refer to? I believe I called her a cunt. Deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chest Rockwell said: I'm sorry I'm going to need to know more about what the job of 'chicken catcher' involves at a detailed level. It must be a Hull thing...https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/chicken-catcher-died-pain-work-3605096 So what has this article taught us? 1. There is apparently the option to go private with your chicken catching. 2. 'Silly beggar' will likely only be found quoted in a Hull newspaper. Edited December 13, 2019 by Snitsky's back acne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Was ok for a bit but just got angry watching Hey Duggee and the Election Badge. Buggy and Lord Fingal tied to run the summer fair. Hung parliament. Fuck off Duggee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Maybe a return to centrism is the way forward, how's Macron getting on these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Accident Prone Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 @King Pitcos, I think my previous comments will do as a long-form response; 6 hours ago, Accident Prone said: That way of thinking worked ten years ago. Politics is a lot more personal now that people's suffering is a lot more publicized and politicians (and the public's) views become more radicalized. Socio-political issues have become much more ingrained, and topics such as climate change have become heavily interwoven in the conversation. The party you vote for now has a direct and huge effect on the quality of people's lives, and a vote for the Tory party (just as an example) usually has a negative, lasting effect on those who are less fortunate and those who are already struggling. So yeah, shouting down people who "JUST WANT BREXIT DONE, INNIT" even though their vote will cost people their lives, sounds okay to me because we're not just voting on stuff like water rates, public transport costs and what kids get taught at schools anymore. Again, someone backing their voting choice with hateful opinions isn't someone who you can debate with. Someone who hates a certain race, creed or sexual orientation/identification isn't going to be won over and isn't going to consider any opinion, and is the same goes for people who dismiss concerns of the NHS crumbling and the rising poverty levels. There's a massive difference between someone saying, "I voted Torie because I agree with their Brexit plan and their tax spending strategy" and someone saying "I voted Torie because I don't like them immigrants". A conversation works with the former, not the latter. I can't believe it's come to the point now where someone with a vile opinion can't be told to fuck off with their vile opinions. And they are vile opinions, no matter how much fence-sitting you like to do (no offense, Keith). It's an incredibly frustrating situation, and if having compassion for people less fortunate than myself and having utter contempt for people who want to decrease funding, services and benefits, if that makes me some idealist, naive 6th-former then line me up, bend me over and use me as a toast rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted December 13, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) All I've heard today (and during the campaign) is that Corbyn was toxic on the doorstep, but I genuinely don't know what it is about him that people would have reason to dislike to such a degree. I've seen some acquaintances share the usual guff on Facebook of him being a terrorist sympathiser or a bad photoshop of Diane Abbott apparently wearing not matching shoes. Really, is that the level of argument? Now being of somewhat of a Welsh nationalist persuasion and not automatically falling on the side of "our troops" in every conflict, I may not be looking at this as those who may be from a more mainstream viewpoint. But I can't find anything that would qualify Corbyn as being a terrorist sympathiser other than some casual aqquaintances with a lot of poetic license. Does the right-wing press still hold so much sway? God, I can't even fathom how the working classes would regard the likes of Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al as having their best interest at heart. TBH there's a part of me that hopes that Brexit is as big a disaster as we all expect it to be, as it would serve a lot of people right. Its just a shame for the rest. I'll probably be allright whatever happens, people get the government they deserve I suppose. Edited December 13, 2019 by garynysmon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
organizedkaos Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, King Pitcos said: That person still gets a vote, so your attitude is just going to see you more upset every time there’s an election. Left-wing, middle-class millennials screaming that everyone who doesn’t vote Labour is a stupid racist who has been fooled by the evil Jew media is a huge part of the problem. The echo chamber convinces you that you and your likeminded friends are the norm and that everyone different is strange and vile, too disgusting to consider as a worthwhile human being - you cast them as The Other, the way they do with foreigners/dolemites/blacks/gaylords/whoever. And the results show that you’re wrong. You’re the outlier, not them. The echo chamber crew just isn’t big enough to win an election, as has been proven every time out over the last five years. And the obnoxious preaching just alienates everyone outside of that psychographic. The “we really care about poor people” sentiment, for example, rings false when followed by the “FUCK U POOR PEOPLE WHY U VOTE WRONG U IDIOTS OR EVIL CUNTS UR A TURKEY VOTING FOR CHRISTMAS” type stuff we see today. Pretending to be compassionate while treating politics like an angry football rivalry ain’t working. The sort of people that have become big, loud Labour supporters in this decade are a niche of the electorate, and have done fuck all to make Labour accessible to anyone outside their niche. They’ve made Labour the party for Citizen Smith. Labour has been hijacked by the likes of Owen Jones, and crying that everyone who doesn’t like Owen Jones is a bigot might get retweets but it’s never, ever going to turn this situation around. If you really care about improving things, it’s time to get some perspective and let go of the myopic, dogmatic, sixth former idealism. You can’t brute force that Labour Party into power. Gonna have to actually engage with the people who voted conservative, or didn’t vote at all. If you really care, you can’t just keep trying to Other them. They will just respond by trouncing you in elections. Sure, those people suck but as you said "niche of the electorate" Plenty people aren't labeling everyone who disagrees with them as racist but are acknowledging there have been racist/xenophobic parts to some group's attitudes Suggesting that anyone taking issue with racism is just doing it for the likes, or making things up to other people is as reductionist as saying everyone who disagrees with you is racist. There's got to be a better way forward that isn't "appeal to the demographics that hate" (and to be absolutely clear that demographic is just "racists" not "poor people"). Otherwise we just keep normalising terrible terrible behaviour and giving it more of a voice within our political system Edited December 13, 2019 by organizedkaos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Power Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 (edited) Maybe Vince and Shane can have a go at Chicken Catching and make a humorous video documenting their journey. Edited December 13, 2019 by Max Power Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, Accident Prone said: I can't believe it's come to the point now where someone with a vile opinion can't be told to fuck off with their vile opinions. And they are vile opinions, no matter how much fence-sitting you like to do (no offense, Keith). None taken, I'm happy to tell anyone who voted tory to fuck off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted December 13, 2019 Moderators Share Posted December 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, hallicks said: Maybe a return to centrism is the way forward, how's Macron getting on these days? He still beat the right into power though, didn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said: He still beat the right into power though, didn't he? Months upon months of civil unrest, half the country going on strike, so it's definitely working out well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Just now, hallicks said: Months upon months of civil unrest, half the country going on strike, so it's definitely working out well. But that's something we should admire the French for, they'll strike over anything that gives them a bad deal where as us pork pie eating surrender bulldogs daren't do anything to upset the paymasters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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