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Gus Mears

General Erection 2019

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3 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Obviously we don't know but the whole point of those papers that were released is that they indicate that those points are all being discussed with the US, which are all contentious points in their recent north American trade deals - they made patents last longer before generic drugs can be marketed and they made loopholes that make it much easier to define something as a 'new drug' (and therefore new patent) even if the active makeup is the same.

Which was the point of my input into the discussion. I'm highlighting what we do know, and that is that Brexit isn't going to be some watershed moment for the US to charge in and force us to turn our beloved NHS into a replica of their system, which is what I'm seeing a lot of politicians hinting at.

There's already US involvement in the NHS, along with other corporations from the likes of Germany and Switzerland. They already command a large chunk of the marketplace and make huge profits out of the NHS. So, the idea of the NHS "being sold off" has been happening for years now.

Just because the US seeks to begin negotiation by asking that NICE isn't allowed to block drugs that it doesn't deem value for money, it doesn't mean they'll get their way. Despite what some of us like to think, the US won't be coming in and calling all of the shots. The US aren't the only big players in pharmaceuticals either. There will be other trade deals on the table from elsewhere on that front.

It's also worth remembering that the US government actually faces a fight from within its own political sphere to change the way patents are dealt with, mainly because it's the US people who are paying the price.

We're seeing a lot of political gamesmanship at the moment, and talk of the NHS "being sold off to Trump" is just another part of it. It's bullshit, and designed to whip up anger and fury among people who should probably know better.

 

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12 minutes ago, David said:

Which was the point of my input into the discussion. I'm highlighting what we do know, and that is that Brexit isn't going to be some watershed moment for the US to charge in and force us to turn our beloved NHS into a replica of their system, which is what I'm seeing a lot of politicians hinting at.

The theory behind it being said to be a watershed moment is because Brexit makes us a lot more vulnerable as a nation, and a lot more desperate for a deal, which makes the likelihood of taking a worse trade deal higher. If you don't think that's what will happen then fine but it's a perfectly sensible and internally consistent logic, with a reasonable amount of data to support it.

Personally even if we get a decent deal from them I think that weakening ties with Europe to strengthen ties with the US is a moral failure at the very least, but that is a separate point...

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52 minutes ago, David said:

Which was the point of my input into the discussion. I'm highlighting what we do know, and that is that Brexit isn't going to be some watershed moment for the US to charge in and force us to turn our beloved NHS into a replica of their system, which is what I'm seeing a lot of politicians hinting at.

We're seeing a lot of political gamesmanship at the moment, and talk of the NHS "being sold off to Trump" is just another part of it. It's bullshit, and designed to whip up anger and fury among people who should probably know better.

 

Completely disagree with all of this. Switching to an insurance based healthcare system with the aim of enriching big pharma is absolutely the goal here. Maybe it won't happen 3 weeks after Brexit but that is where they want to go. 

Emphasising Johnson being in bed with Trump, followed by the potential privatisation and subsequent death of the NHS, are two very valid sticks to beat the tories with. For all labour's policies of investment, green new deal, etc, its important to be able to say "and this is how and why the tories are shit." People already skip the dentist because of the costs. What's that £20 co-pay every time you see a GP gonna do? 

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People will die by the tens of thousands if they ever try and move to end free at point of use nhs.

Or millions would die if they ended concessions on medication. Anyone with any form of condition from blood pressure to asthma wouldn’t be able to get insurance due to existing conditions nor pay full pelt for the medication they would need. 

Any party trying to do that would removed from power and then cease to exist. 

 

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You're talking about the government that deported black British citizens to their deaths, that enabled however many hundred thousand unnecessary deaths due to austerity. You think people don't die in America because they can't afford basic healthcare? 

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27 minutes ago, hallicks said:

You're talking about the government that deported black British citizens to their deaths, that enabled however many hundred thousand unnecessary deaths due to austerity. You think people don't die in America because they can't afford basic healthcare? 

Your suggesting that a Tory government would preside over the death of possible tens of millions of it’s own people? By taking their medication and putting the prices to us levels? Knowing they couldn’t afford it. 
 

The fabric of the country would collapse in days 
 

Edited by quote the raven

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22 minutes ago, quote the raven said:

Your suggesting that a Tory government would preside over the death of possible tens of millions of it’s own people? By taking their medication and putting the prices to us levels? Knowing they couldn’t afford it. 
 

The fabric of the country would collapse in days 
 

I'm saying if you think this government wouldn't oversee the deaths of its own citizens in the name of ideological purity, you're wrong because its happened already. 

It won't be an overnight thing, it'll continue as it has done for a while, they'll make fewer and fewer procedures available on the NHS until you can barely get anything done at all, forcing you to go private. And someone will have the great idea of "well, if we need to go private to get anything done, why don't we all just get private healthcare?" And that'll be that. It's the tried and tested road to privatisation - defund it to the point it doesn't work properly so it can be handed over to private capital, what else can we do? 

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The thing with tories and people with far right sensibilities is they believe that the government wouldn't come for them.  Anecdotal I know but there are people who are voting tory who are on disability and PIP who think that they won't have to pay for their medication because they've got diabetes, so any reforms will keep that in place.

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8 hours ago, hallicks said:

I'm saying if you think this government wouldn't oversee the deaths of its own citizens in the name of ideological purity, you're wrong because its happened already. 

It won't be an overnight thing, it'll continue as it has done for a while, they'll make fewer and fewer procedures available on the NHS until you can barely get anything done at all, forcing you to go private.can we do? 

But they only have 5 years? Even a Mri or Ct scan would run into hundreds of pounds so lord knows what an actual medical  procedure would cost. The result is the same hardly anyone would be able to pay for it. 

The end result is still the same, any long term condition would be excluded from insurance claims, the people with something as simple as asthma would in all likely hood die. Thats 5.5 million alone minus a few thousand that could sell their home to pay for drugs and treatment. Likewise with type 2 diabetes roughly another 5 million. 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, quote the raven said:

But they only have 5 years? Even a Mri or Ct scan would run into hundreds of pounds so lord knows what an actual medical  procedure would cost. The result is the same hardly anyone would be able to pay for it. 

The end result is still the same, any long term condition would be excluded from insurance claims, the people with something as simple as asthma would in all likely hood die. Thats 5.5 million alone minus a few thousand that could sell their home to pay for drugs and treatment. Likewise with type 2 diabetes roughly another 5 million. 

 

 

 

This is where the insurance bit comes in. If you've got a standard policy, things like your inhaler or your insulin will be "affordable" but they'll likely introduce co-pays for every time you go to the doctor. Hospital visits costs more. So over there, the list price of an inhaler is something like $300. But if you have insurance, it'll get reduced to something like $20 or $40. But if you can't afford to get covered, then you're fucked. For our 2nd child, the total bill for my wife to give birth there (before insurance coverage) was in excess of $50,000. After insurance, we still had to pay about $1,700 (most of it went on credit card). If we'd stayed any longer there, I dread to think how much we'd have to have paid on hospital visits/medication for our kiddo with her epilepsy and ASD. 

Re: long term claims, didn't Obama make it illegal to exclude pre-existing conditions from insurance? Has trump rescinded that? 

I would hope it never gets like that here, that there would always be a provision for those that can't afford it, but if the last 9 years are anything to go by, it's the poorest who will suffer the most. 

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Raab, Patel, Skidmore, Kwarteng and Truss - "After the coalition", 2011, which argues for greater privatisation of healthcare. 

Jeremy Hunt and others - "Direct Democracy", 2005, calling for the introduction of an insurance based healthcare system. 

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10 hours ago, quote the raven said:

Your suggesting that a Tory government would preside over the death of possible tens of millions of it’s own people? By taking their medication and putting the prices to us levels? Knowing they couldn’t afford it. 
 

The fabric of the country would collapse in days 
 

Yeah, remember all the riots when thousands of terminally ill people died just a fortnight after being found 'fit for work'? The public uproar from dying Brits being forced to spend their last days in interviews with ATOS?

Nope, because most Brits don't give a fuck.

https://www.theweek.co.uk/64973/thousands-of-people-have-died-after-being-found-fit-for-work

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I think it's less about people not giving a fuck as it being a slow Chinese water torture of unacceptability.

I can't remember the exact quote, but someone was asked how the German people didn't kick off against what the Nazis were doing, and the point was that it didn't become beyond the pale overnight. It's a slow, gradual move towards that point. But if you don't think Point A is enough to storm the streets about, then Point B comes along and it's only a little worse than Point A...and so on and so on. If they'd jumped straight to Point E or F, there would be rioting in the streets, but doing it in increments, human nature is really just to think, "well is it that much worse than where we're at now?", because we're so quick to adjust to a new normal.

But homelessness has risen by more than 100% under the Tories, homeless deaths at a record high, the "fit for work" insanity you mentioned. Think tanks have estimated 130,000 people died as a result of austerity policies since 2012. The NHS slowed to a crawl compared to other countries on its ability to reduce preventable diseases. Governments will absolutely reside over the deaths of their own people in the name of ideological purity (and austerity has always been an ideological choice), so long as there's just enough plausible deniability that government policy can't be directly blamed (i.e., Boris Johnson isn't actually out in the streets shooting the poors, so how is it his fault?). 

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Seen a few pieces on the effect of bad weather (next Thursday is looking snowy/icy/shit). Generally the theory is that it's small effects that cancel each other out, most notably Conservatives are more likely to do postal votes which are unaffected, but old people are more likely to be deterred (or prevented) from voting when it's a case of "physically can't get to the polling station" rather than "can't be bothered in the rain."

However, one thing people are pondering this time is how it affects conflicted voters, specifically Conservative Remainers who hate hard Brexit but fear Corbyn, and Labour Leavers who want "Brexit done" but have an anti-Tory stigma. There's a theory that some of those who were flirting with voting for the "other side" might use the weather as an excuse to stay home and avoid making the decision.

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19 hours ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

Anyone else think It was Aphex Twin on the side of the Lib Dem’s bus or is it just me?

E7FFE90F-F6FF-40B7-841D-E7334D4BB6F9.jpeg

christ. looks like The Fiend.

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