General Erection 2019

[hallicks]

The price we would negotiate with US companies is a big deal, though, because the tories aren't going to meet any rising costs out of public money. They're all ravenously in favour of private healthcare and its not because it'll benefit average joe. 

[David]

4 minutes ago, hallicks said:

The price we would negotiate with US companies is a big deal, though, because the tories aren't going to meet any rising costs out of public money. They're all ravenously in favour of private healthcare and its not because it'll benefit average joe. 

I'm assuming we already negotiated deals with the companies I mentioned though? If those deals have been in place for a while, no? 

I don't see why that would change? German, Swiss and US companies have been involved in the NHS for a while now, and deals have been negotiated and re-negotiated over the years. Why would this suddenly become an issue if the 'Tories win the election this month?

[Carbomb]

6 minutes ago, David said:

If you're suggesting that I'm being duped somehow then I'd say you were mistaken. My point is simply that this notion of the NHS now being in danger of a US style takeover because of Brexit is false. As mentioned, a US pharmaceutical company was the leading provider to the NHS last year. We've also got German and Swiss companies playing a huge part.

This has been the case for years now, long before Boris Johnson or Brexit was even a factor. It's how things are.

No, I'm saying that, if I were a cynical politician aiming to privatise the NHS, I'd be doing it slice by slice, so that responses like yours would on the face of things be  (and are) perfectly reasonable. 

"It's how things are", though, has never been an argument for me. I wouldn't embrace the politics I do if I thought there was no point to trying to change things, or at the very least trying to stop them from getting worse. If I honestly thought "well, that's it", I don't think I could get up in the morning.

[Chest Rockwell]

27 minutes ago, David said:

I'm assuming we already negotiated deals with the companies I mentioned though? If those deals have been in place for a while, no? 

I don't see why that would change? German, Swiss and US companies have been involved in the NHS for a while now, and deals have been negotiated and re-negotiated over the years. Why would this suddenly become an issue if the 'Tories win the election this month?

Because as part of a broader trade deal they'll put in restrictions on generic drugs and how long drug patents last and how they work. This will push the price of medicines up for the UK market regardless of who is supplying them. The companies gain money, they don't lose out on anything. It's not about whether or not it's a US company supplying the drugs it's about what the rules are. And it just so happens that as part of these rules the US suppliers we do have will win out, and be able to do to us moor expensive and have more exclusivity

Edited December 4, 2019 by Chest Rockwell

[David]

Just now, Carbomb said:

No, I'm saying that, if I were a cynical politician aiming to privatise the NHS, I'd be doing it slice by slice, so that responses like yours would on the face of things be  (and are) perfectly reasonable. 

Yeah, I'm just highlighting that what a lot of people seem think will happen after Brexit under a Johnson-led Conservative Government has already been happening for years now. 

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

"It's how things are", though, has never been an argument for me. I wouldn't embrace the politics I do if I thought there was no point to trying to change things, or at the very least trying to stop them from getting worse. If I honestly thought "well, that's it", I don't think I could get up in the morning.

The world of big business, be it the pharma industry or otherwise, is going to continue regardless of who is in power. It would take something ridiculous to prevent that from happening, especially in the west. And that won't happen.

[Carbomb]

In general, it's true that Tories gonna Tory, but I think Brexit will make it easier for them to do that in the current climate. I'd argue that it also makes it easier for the Left to fight them, but the Left is disorganised, fractious, and under fire from a right-wing establishment that probably knows this.

[Keith Houchen]

The golden egg of the NHS is the data/medical history of all the people who use it. That’s what the private healthcare people want above anything. It’s the most valuable commodity in the world. 

[David]

14 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Because as part of a broader trade deal they'll put in restrictions on generic drugs and how long drug patents last and how they work. This will push the price of medicines up for the UK market regardless of who is supplying them. The companies gain money, they don't lose out on anything. It's not about whether or not it's a US company supplying the drugs it's about what the rules are. And it just so happens that as part of these rules the US suppliers we do have will win out, and be able to do to us moor expensive and have more exclusivity

Well, we don't really know what any future trade deal with the US will consist of, do we? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's a hell of a lot of moving parts to such a deal, and by the time anything is signed off we may not even have the same President or Prime Minister at the helm of both countries. 

The harsh truth is that we, as a nation, elect a government to deal with these matters. We provide them with a mandate under the current UK electoral system to go and represent our best interests in trade deals and so on. Could the Conservatives fuck it up? Of course. But that's how it is. If they win the election they have the permission of the country to make those deals.

10 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

In general, it's true that Tories gonna Tory, but I think Brexit will make it easier for them to do that in the current climate. I'd argue that it also makes it easier for the Left to fight them, but the Left is disorganised, fractious, and under fire from a right-wing establishment that probably knows this.

The left have been disorganised and fractious for decades now. I've seen it first-hand. The egos involved in politics, be it on the left or right, are huge. it just so happens that those on the right care about money a bit more and are able to slide ego aside ever so slightly for that. The left aren't.

3 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

The golden egg of the NHS is the data/medical history of all the people who use it. That’s what the private healthcare people want above anything. It’s the most valuable commodity in the world. 

100% agree. Personal data is the new oil, or something like that. I'm sure I've heard that said a few times.

Only this year we saw Sensyne, a clinical AI firm, strike a deal with Bayer enabling them to apply their algorithms to patients medical records. This will include around 3 million NHS patients apparently.

[SuperBacon]

9 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

The golden egg of the NHS is the data/medical history of all the people who use it. That’s what the private healthcare people want above anything. It’s the most valuable commodity in the world. 

Data from members on here would be worth millions in itself. Bad aids, snapped banjo strings, vasectomies, prolapsed rectum from years of porcelain sitting, bovine related injuries.

Imagine what they could do with that info.

[Keith Houchen]

Plus the research in finding and eliminating the nonce gene. 

[Hannibal Scorch]

Anyone else think It was Aphex Twin on the side of the Lib Dem’s bus or is it just me?

[Chest Rockwell]

35 minutes ago, David said:

Well, we don't really know what any future trade deal with the US will consist of, do we? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's a hell of a lot of moving parts to such a deal, and by the time anything is signed off we may not even have the same President or Prime Minister at the helm of both countries. 

The harsh truth is that we, as a nation, elect a government to deal with these matters. We provide them with a mandate under the current UK electoral system to go and represent our best interests in trade deals and so on. Could the Conservatives fuck it up? Of course. But that's how it is. If they win the election they have the permission of the country to make those deals.

Obviously we don't know but the whole point of those papers that were released is that they indicate that those points are all being discussed with the US, which are all contentious points in their recent north American trade deals - they made patents last longer before generic drugs can be marketed and they made loopholes that make it much easier to define something as a 'new drug' (and therefore new patent) even if the active makeup is the same.

No shit the government we elect had the power to make those trade deals. That's why we're saying it would be a bad idea to elect the Tories on the basis of the contents of the papers released.

Have you blathered on in circles for so long you've actually forgotten the point of the discussion at hand?

Edited December 4, 2019 by Chest Rockwell

[David]

3 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

Obviously we don't know but the whole point of those papers that were released is that they indicate that those points are all being discussed with the US, which are all contentious points in their recent north American trade deals - they made patents last longer before generic drugs can be marketed and they made loopholes that make it much easier to define something as a 'new drug' (and therefore new patent) even if the active makeup is the same.

Which was the point of my input into the discussion. I'm highlighting what we do know, and that is that Brexit isn't going to be some watershed moment for the US to charge in and force us to turn our beloved NHS into a replica of their system, which is what I'm seeing a lot of politicians hinting at.

There's already US involvement in the NHS, along with other corporations from the likes of Germany and Switzerland. They already command a large chunk of the marketplace and make huge profits out of the NHS. So, the idea of the NHS "being sold off" has been happening for years now.

Just because the US seeks to begin negotiation by asking that NICE isn't allowed to block drugs that it doesn't deem value for money, it doesn't mean they'll get their way. Despite what some of us like to think, the US won't be coming in and calling all of the shots. The US aren't the only big players in pharmaceuticals either. There will be other trade deals on the table from elsewhere on that front.

It's also worth remembering that the US government actually faces a fight from within its own political sphere to change the way patents are dealt with, mainly because it's the US people who are paying the price.

We're seeing a lot of political gamesmanship at the moment, and talk of the NHS "being sold off to Trump" is just another part of it. It's bullshit, and designed to whip up anger and fury among people who should probably know better.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

12 minutes ago, David said:

Which was the point of my input into the discussion. I'm highlighting what we do know, and that is that Brexit isn't going to be some watershed moment for the US to charge in and force us to turn our beloved NHS into a replica of their system, which is what I'm seeing a lot of politicians hinting at.

The theory behind it being said to be a watershed moment is because Brexit makes us a lot more vulnerable as a nation, and a lot more desperate for a deal, which makes the likelihood of taking a worse trade deal higher. If you don't think that's what will happen then fine but it's a perfectly sensible and internally consistent logic, with a reasonable amount of data to support it.

Personally even if we get a decent deal from them I think that weakening ties with Europe to strengthen ties with the US is a moral failure at the very least, but that is a separate point...

[hallicks]

52 minutes ago, David said:

Which was the point of my input into the discussion. I'm highlighting what we do know, and that is that Brexit isn't going to be some watershed moment for the US to charge in and force us to turn our beloved NHS into a replica of their system, which is what I'm seeing a lot of politicians hinting at.

We're seeing a lot of political gamesmanship at the moment, and talk of the NHS "being sold off to Trump" is just another part of it. It's bullshit, and designed to whip up anger and fury among people who should probably know better.

 

Completely disagree with all of this. Switching to an insurance based healthcare system with the aim of enriching big pharma is absolutely the goal here. Maybe it won't happen 3 weeks after Brexit but that is where they want to go. 

Emphasising Johnson being in bed with Trump, followed by the potential privatisation and subsequent death of the NHS, are two very valid sticks to beat the tories with. For all labour's policies of investment, green new deal, etc, its important to be able to say "and this is how and why the tories are shit." People already skip the dentist because of the costs. What's that £20 co-pay every time you see a GP gonna do?