Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Gus Mears

General Erection 2019

Who are you voting for?  

213 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

Just now, Dead Mike said:

I'm more than aware of the abuse Diane Abbot gets & it's disgusting. It doesn't change the fact that people hate her & putting her on TV is detrimental to Labours elections hopes.

With regards to your last point, 'less shit' might not be ideal but it's achievable. Would you rather have 50% of the current Labour manifesto or 5yrs of unrestricted Tory policies? Claiming you want 100% of Corbyn's Labour is fine but it's not going to happen, the public don't want it. Say what you like about the Tories, at least they realise to get the changes you want you actually have to be in power first.

 

Is kowtowing to a hostile media going to make the problem of institutional racism in society go away?

That's the classic "broad church" response of the labour right - "if only you'd do what we want, everything would be better." It's not a sliding scale, is it? Once we hit 50% less socialism, the media will suddenly start portraying us in a good light. Or, let's get elected on a platform of demonising muslims, but then build a million council houses once we're in power.

The propaganda campaign of the last 4 years has convinced people they don't want to vote for Corbyn. Like that clip of that woman who describes in detail and at length the poverty in her constituency, families having to choose between paying bills and paying rent, and who's the best party to solve these problems? The conservatives, of course! The people who created them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, hallicks said:

Is kowtowing to a hostile media going to make the problem of institutional racism in society go away?

No. Is putting someone who the public think is shit on TV going to get you more votes or less?

Quote

That's the classic "broad church" response of the labour right - "if only you'd do what we want, everything would be better." It's not a sliding scale, is it? Once we hit 50% less socialism, the media will suddenly start portraying us in a good light. Or, let's get elected on a platform of demonising muslims, but then build a million council houses once we're in power.

Nobody's claimed Labour should run on a campaign of demonising Muslims though have they? However, once in power they could build affordable housing. The key is getting into power.

 

Quote

The propaganda campaign of the last 4 years has convinced people they don't want to vote for Corbyn. Like that clip of that woman who describes in detail and at length the poverty in her constituency, families having to choose between paying bills and paying rent, and who's the best party to solve these problems? The conservatives, of course! The people who created them.

The thing is, people don't like Johnson. He's got negative approval ratings. People fucking despise Corbyn though & yes, it's largely due to the campaign against him. Just because it's not fair doesn't stop it from being reality though so you've got 2 options. Change the leader to someone less toxic & hope the inevitable propaganda against them has less impact, or make no changes, lose another election then moan about the media some more. At some point idealism has to meet reality.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

Change the leader to someone less toxic

To who? You've said this a million times now, name someone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

To who? You've said this a million times now, name someone.

My ideal pick would be Dan Jarvis but I don't know if he even wants the job. Failing that, Keir Starmer or Jess Philips.

Edited by Dead Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

No. Is putting someone who the public think is shit on TV going to get you more votes or less?

I'm struggling to articulate an answer to this - what's being implied here isn't something I feel comfortable or in a qualified position to be talking about.

38 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

Nobody's claimed Labour should run on a campaign of demonising Muslims though have they? However, once in power they could build affordable housing. The key is getting into power.

So how far right do you have to go before you become a palatable enough option for Murdoch et al to get behind? New Labour starting getting into Islamaphobia in the 2000's.

38 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

The thing is, people don't like Johnson. He's got negative approval ratings. People fucking despise Corbyn though & yes, it's largely due to the campaign against him. Just because it's not fair doesn't stop it from being reality though so you've got 2 options. Change the leader to someone less toxic & hope the inevitable propaganda against them has less impact, or make no changes, lose another election then moan about the media some more. At some point idealism has to meet reality.

Well, if Labour can't form a government after December 12, I'm sure Corb will do one. Who do you reckon might fare better? EDIT Just seen your response.

Edited by hallicks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I said before, I still don't get why Labour need to move back rightwards to become more electable - it was New Labour that got voted out last time, for apparently causing the global financial crash. Whether you agree with that assessment or not (I don't), that's what the majority of the electorate appear to think. Why would they be any more electable now?

Dan Jarvis is just a crap Clive Lewis anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, hallicks said:

 

So how far right do you have to go before you become a palatable enough option for Murdoch et al to get behind? New Labour starting getting into Islamaphobia in the 2000's.

 

To get Murdoch's backing? Not going to happen again unless the public get REALLY pissed off with the Tories (like they did with Major) & the Murdoch press were pretty much forced to back Labour. In 1997 the likes of The Sun still backing the Conservatives would've put them at odds with their readership. This is the reason the Scottish Sun & the UK version have differing takes on the same topics.

Quote

As I said before, I still don't get why Labour need to move back rightwards to become more electable

As I've said before, I'm not 100% sure they do. The 2017 manifesto polled well with the public until they learned the policies were Corbyn's.

Quote

Dan Jarvis is just a crap Clive Lewis anyway.

Ex soldier, single father who lost his wife to cancer & Northern. Much harder for the tabloids to slander.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

As I've said before, I'm not 100% sure they do. The 2017 manifesto polled well with the public until they learned the policies were Corbyn's.

The leader candidates you've mentioned are definitely closer to the centre than most of the Labour frontbench.

9 minutes ago, Dead Mike said:

Ex soldier, single father who lost his wife to cancer & Northern. Much harder for the tabloids to slander.

Clive Lewis is also an ex-soldier, and black. Also difficult to slander - although I appreciate that the right-wing rags in this country will definitely have a go; now that they get to hide behind the Jewish community that they don't really give a fuck about except as a stick to beat the Left with, they're happy to let other forms of racism slide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Starmer would certainly fit the casting teams perfect candidate for the centre left. He's also maintained loyalty to Corbyn so would not be seen as utterly toxic to the Momentum groups. The fact is Corbyn has moved the party to the left again, and that's no bad thing.In fact progressive left wings ideas are starting to gain a lot of attention and excitement. Hell even in the US.

I just think he himself is seen as the problem, not his policies.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I really cannot stand is the whole portrayal of Labour as being "extreme Left". Do these people even fucking know what being a left-winger means? Corbyn's touting policies that Harold Wilson espoused when he was PM, for crying out loud.

If they think that's extreme, god knows what words they'd use to describe a nationwide policy of collectivisation of all large industry and agriculture. And if he was really that militant, he'd have included disestablishment of the fucking Church of England already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you actually tackle most people on this subject, it becomes clear it's not a 'Corbyn is the problem!' stance but 'proper left / socialism is the problem!' The exact same arguments and rhetoric would be trotted out if it was Dan Carden or Rebecca Long-Bailey in charge. It's just an easy cover for centrism for people who don't want to be labelled centrist mums or dads.

 

Edited by Devon Malcolm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a fair amount of evidence that it's not the case - people being polled on policies blind, and approving of Labour policies, but being critical of Labour/Corbyn without that context.

The underlying issue there is that aside from us nerds who bang on about all this, no one knows what's in manifestos. They pick up bits and pieces from half-glimpsed headlines, Mock The Week and workplace chatter (or increasingly Facebook), and in the end it comes down to either their local MP, or which party leader they think they dislike least, based on any number of cobbled together misconceptions. I do think enough people fundamentally either dislike or distrust Boris Johnson that we won't see a Tory majority, but we're also not going to see anything like a Labour landslide.

As for the media - there's two things to consider there. One is that, yes, the media are attacking Corbyn, but they're not going to stop. They can't just keep blaming a biased media, they need to work with the fact that the media are biased as their baseline, and figure out how to win in spite of that. Whether that's extensive door-stopping, rallying and campaign events, innovative use of social media and other non-traditional media outlets to get their message out regardless, whatever it is, the media being biased isn't an excuse for losing, it's an obstacle to overcome. 

The other is that Jeremy Corbyn, prior to being elected leader, was by and large a non-entity. The Murdoch papers wouldn't give a toss about him if he were still just a local MP, maybe not even if he were a front-bencher under another leader. At best he'd be a weird leftist novelty. They don't genuinely believe Corbyn is a Stalinist demagogue, they're just using whatever material they can get to bring down his political message. The idea that The Sun or the Daily Mail would suddenly let up on the attack strategy if Starmer or Carden or anyone else was standing with the exact same manifesto is naive in the extreme, because it's the politics they object to. And if you think someone like Kier Starmer is beyond reproach and without scandal, they'll find someone who met him once at a party and thought he was a prick, or crop a photo to make it look like he's sneering at a Chelsea pensioner, or decide that he eats sausage rolls weird. Corbyn or not, they'll find a way.

Edited by BomberPat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it's not simply a case of people deciding that they hate Corbyn or hate the Labour manifesto. This is a prime example of the British establishment at its absolute sneakiest, closing ranks when it comes to their own, and subliminally convincing ordinary people that their interests are the same as those of Boris Johnson and his ilk. And the British establishment is one of the oldest in the world, because it's good at this kind of shit. It's incredibly adaptable and fundamentally dishonest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...