AEW All Out

[Accident Prone]

4 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

There's two things going on here - one is something that I noticed from All In; where they book indie talent that exist outside of The Elite/PWG sphere, the crowd have seemed fairly down on them, so I don't think they're as "informed" as they might like to think. There definitely doesn't seem to be much of a serious following among the AEW diehards for CHIKARA, or pre-Elite PWG, for example.

I too noticed this during All In. A lot of the fanbase seem to be exploring non-WWE pastures for the first time, and I mainly attribute this to the The Elite's success as a YouTube brand and The Bullet Club becoming a massive mainstream franchise. They're just following wherever Omega, The Bucks and Cody go because they want an antithesis to the Cenas and Reigns of mainland WWE. 

So you have a bulk of the audience watching for those guys but not knowing anyone else, a bulk of the audience just tuning in to see the first legitimate competition to WWE since WCW folded and the rest is made of up of indy nerds, so it makes for a weird audience to play to.

There's a balance to be attained for sure, but the people who have been following some of these guys for over ten years aren't going to mind being re-introduced to certain characters if it means they get their chance on a larger stage.

21 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The indy Ministry of Darkness gimmick just doesn't work because they can't do a clean break from Super Smash Bros. If they're not doing a video game gimmick, he shouldn't still have a name referencing his origin as Player Uno, Stu shouldn't be dressing up as Kratos, they shouldn't have henchmen named after a Minecraft baddy, and they shouldn't have a ton of their moves given cute video game reference names. It seems like they want the advantages of having new characters to play with, but don't want to risk losing any credibility they've already gained under their earlier gimmicks. And I think that's a balance AEW will continue to struggle with as they work out just how much they can afford to assume prior knowledge from their audience.

Bang on the money there. The Dark Order, and all the little nods and layers and names, makes sense when done in the environment where everyone knows their past. The Bucks made a tremendous misjudgment with their introduction.

Even the most lapsed-fan of that pre-2013 indy scene would've recognized The Dark Order as SSB under a different gimmick, but the reaction in that arena when they debuted was soul-destroying cold, and it's not improved since then. There's been no video packages explaining their past, no mini-documentaries on what happened to Player Uno and Stupefied, nothing. I hope the AEW TV show lets this story be told properly, otherwise the same arseholes who chanted "You're just a shit Jack Swagger" at Pete Dunne years ago are going to turn TDO into a laughing stock.

[BomberPat]

5 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

There's been no video packages explaining their past, no mini-documentaries on what happened to Player Uno and Stupefied, nothing.

Honestly, I'd rather them barely do more than allude to them having been the Smash Bros. The people who need to know, will know. Excalibur can, like he did when they first appeared, say "I know who they are!", without naming them.

But I'd rather, if they're going with the Dark Order gimmick, they just establish them as wholly new characters. But unless I've missed something on the YouTube stuff I don't watch, they've given them no promo time or character development whatsoever. So I still don't really know who or what the Dark Order are, in AEW terms. And if they're going to be a legitimate heel threat, it's definitely too soon to have a team like the Best Friends risk undermining their credibility as scary heels by calling them "Spooky Perverts". But at the moment, that's all they are - Spooky Perverts.

I'm hoping once they have TV, there will be more of an effort to teach the audience who people are, and the extent to which the AEW version of themselves is informed by, or separate from, their former personae. Because while it's clear that we're expected to know that, for example, Shawn Spears is Tye Dillinger. But are we supposed to know that Evil Uno is the same Player Uno from CHIKARA, or are we supposed to see him as a brand new character for AEW purposes?

[Carbomb]

5 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

I'm hoping once they have TV, there will be more of an effort to teach the audience who people are, and the extent to which the AEW version of themselves is informed by, or separate from, their former personae. Because while it's clear that we're expected to know that, for example, Shawn Spears is Tye Dillinger. But are we supposed to know that Evil Uno is the same Player Uno from CHIKARA, or are we supposed to see him as a brand new character for AEW purposes?

This is the crux of the problem, by the sound of it: they're booking as though Spears and TDO's exposure has been equal thus far, which, obviously, it hasn't. As Dillinger, he was built up on WWE TV, which will have had a lot more eyeballs on it, even NXT, than anything Chikara's put out. If they're chasing a big audience that will enable them to compete in the market, the people they need to appeal to won't for the most part know about the indy stars' histories.

[BrodyGraham]

I'm largely positive about most of the show, though I haven't seen the Main Event yet.

Can I however take a second to ask if anyone else thought that the vignette for Wardlow was the fucking drizzling shits, or is it just me?

Lucha Underground used to do similar stuff but would shoot it with a lot more style and edit it so the subject looked cool and dangerous. 

This made Wardlow look the worst kind of uncoordinated lummox, which is unforgivable for that kind of vignette, being shot like a mini movie.

That said some people will eat it up because he's big and for them that's enough.

Edited September 2, 2019 by BrodyGraham

[tiger_rick]

Just now, Carbomb said:

This is the crux of the problem, by the sound of it: they're booking as though Spears and TDO's exposure has been equal thus far, which, obviously, it hasn't. As Dillinger, he was built up on WWE TV, which will have had a lot more eyeballs on it, even NXT, than anything Chikara's put out. If they're chasing a big audience that will enable them to compete in the market, the people they need to appeal to won't for the most part know about the indy stars' histories.

Spears has been in a major storyline with Cody, had a very good promo video before the turn, turned in a major angle and has had several videos since explaining his motivation and adding Tully Blanchard as his manager.

Dark Order have been in one naff angle and two matches fighting for a bye in a tournament no-one understands. They're not remotely similar and don't need to be.

TV is the key. They've done 4 shows of which 1 was irrelevent and 1 minor, built from what amounts to about 40-50 minutes of video of which 90% focuses on the 2/3 main event matches. Hardly anything below is particularly defined. That needs to change next month.

[Carbomb]

1 minute ago, tiger_rick said:

Spears has been in a major storyline with Cody, had a very good promo video before the turn, turned in a major angle and has had several videos since explaining his motivation and adding Tully Blanchard as his manager.

Dark Order have been in one naff angle and two matches fighting for a bye in a tournament no-one understands. They're not remotely similar and don't need to be.

TV is the key. They've done 4 shows of which 1 was irrelevent and 1 minor, built from what amounts to about 40-50 minutes of video of which 90% focuses on the 2/3 main event matches. Hardly anything below is particularly defined. That needs to change next month.

I'm not talking about the gimmicks, I'm referring specifically to the point being made that the booking of either act appears to be that they're assuming prior knowledge on the part of the audience in both cases, and that this is presenting a problem in the latter's getting over.

[tiger_rick]

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

I'm not talking about the gimmicks, I'm referring specifically to the point being made that the booking of either act appears to be that they're assuming prior knowledge on the part of the audience in both cases, and that this is presenting a problem in the latter's getting over.

I know what you mean. But even with the prior knowledge of Dillinger/Spears, they've made an effort to progress him because he's been part of a major story and match. The Dark Order haven't. They're a low-card tag team. They've done nothing so far that couldn't be explained by the announce team.

There's an element of assuming prior knowledge in most things they're doing. Most of the roster-fillers have had no real introduction. But it's clear the crowd in attendance know who they are. They clearly think the paying audience at home do too. Wrongly IMO.

[tiger_rick]

11 minutes ago, BrodyGraham said:

Can I however take a second to ask if anyone else thought that the vignette for Wardlow was the fucking drizzling shots, or is it just me?

Lucha Underground used to do similar stuff but would shoot it with a lot more style and edit it so the subject looked cool and dangerous. 

This made Wardlow look the worst kind of uncoordinated lummox, which is unforgivable for that kind of vignette, being shot like a mini movie.

That said some people will eat it up because he's big and for them that's enough.

I've had to go off and find it as I didn't watch the Buy In. It was alright. Inoffensive nonsense that did it's job. As for him being big, having never heard of him, I googled him and ended up on his twitter. He looks big. First two clips I watched that he'd retweeted he's doing a superkick in one and a hurricanrana in the other. Him being big is going to be irrelevent very quickly if he's just intent on doing stuff everyone else does so he can show how athletic he is. Ugh.

[King Pitcos]

Surely the problem with the Dark Order is the lack of commitment to what they are meant to be - not just in terms of their backstory but in terms of where they fit into AEW right now. They look like utter shit, the sort of thing you can get away with presenting as a serious act at leisure centre local shows, but you’d have to be mental to present them as a credible act in a promotion with an actual TV show. They’re probably fine as shitty little comedy jobbers, and the spooky perverts stuff works there. But they’re also supposed to be a proper team that are dangerous?

They seem indicative of the lack of vision in AEW. It’s been pitched as the company that doesn’t put the restraints on what you can be, and as such, there’s not much quality control or cohesion on what the roster does.

[DavidB6937]

Yeah I'm all for variety and allowing the talent to push themselves and have freedom, but it has made the company a real mishmash of ideas and quality. I like to think they'll have a better and more focused idea overall once they have a more regular product to put on. At least I hope so because they need it.

[tiger_rick]

11 minutes ago, King Pitcos said:

They seem indicative of the lack of vision in AEW. It’s been pitched as the company that doesn’t put the restraints on what you can be, and as such, there’s not much quality control or cohesion on what the roster does.

That's a big problem they have so far. It's something I'm hopeful will be solved by them writing TV every week and establishing their own identity. Apart from the top guys in the big angles, the rest have been thrown out to be whatever version of themselves they've been working as on the indies. Again, it works for the live audience they currently have but they have to open it up.

Some things give me hope that the know this. the bits they've done on Britt Baker, Nia, Private Party and Best Friends on their "Road to" videos have been really good at establishing them. JR pointing out the fucking Topes in every match during a PPV main event is also hopefully ringing some alarm bells about their quality control.

I say it an awful lot but I guess we'll see. None of us are privvy to their plans or ideas and the only source we'd have for it, Meltzer, has zero credibility for his reporting on them anyway.

[BomberPat]

19 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

JR pointing out the fucking Topes in every match during a PPV main event is also hopefully ringing some alarm bells about their quality control.

Not that it excuses them, but it's a cross-industry problem. NXT UK Takeover was full of identical suicide dives in concurrent matches, and had the Crippler Crossface used in three matches, two of them (IIRC) one after the other.

[tiger_rick]

17 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Not that it excuses them, but it's a cross-industry problem. NXT UK Takeover was full of identical suicide dives in concurrent matches, and had the Crippler Crossface used in three matches, two of them (IIRC) one after the other.

Completely agree. It's felt the last few years that too many matches feel the same. Built on a base of dives, superkicks, "MMA" leg kicks and armdrags.

WWE do a decent job of managing it through their road agents but it does slip through. I think it's come about as the average size of the guys working has come down and they've come through the same development centre.

It is worse in AEW, mainly because some cunt insists on screaming TOPE SUICIDA after every one like it's the first one he's ever seen.

[BomberPat]

3 minutes ago, tiger_rick said:

Completely agree. It's felt the last few years that too many matches feel the same. Built on a base of dives, superkicks, "MMA" leg kicks and armdrags.

WWE do a decent job of managing it through their road agents but it does slip through. I think it's come about as the average size of the guys working has come down and they've come through the same development centre.

It is worse in AEW, mainly because some cunt insists on screaming TOPE SUICIDA after every one like it's the first one he's ever seen.

I think coming through NXT/the Performance Centre, and then the over-exposure of WWE TV style, is the problem. Wrestling used to be a really diverse range of styles - one of my favourite things about watching mid-90s WCW is seeing how they span southern wrestling, WWF style main events, lucha and Japanese junior stuff all in one show - but has become increasingly homogenous. 

But, beyond that, it's about agenting/production. I've been backstage at very small indie shows where they have effectively a sign-up sheet on the wall, with things like "suicide dive", "apron bump", "fighting in the crowd" and so on, and wrestlers sign their names against them to say they're planning it in their match, so you know when you're risking repetition. Or where, before the doors open, the promoter asks everyone, starting with the main event, if there are any spots they want protecting for their match, so not to be used elsewhere on the card. 

It's such a simple thing, and something that frustrates me so much when I see people not manage to adhere to it. Repetition of key spots is my biggest bugbear in all of wrestling.

 

It's a little different for shows like All Out, where it's got a "supercard" feel, and the crowd are already effectively a captive audience, but my rule of thumb is that a show should be an exercise in teaching people how wrestling works. The opening match shouldn't have anyone leave the ring and should end clean. The following match might have people leave the ring, maybe the heel gaining an unfair advantage by taking a breather on the outside to stall for time, and maybe including some cheating, to establish what the boundaries are. Third match? Then you've taught the crowd that the match happens inside the ring, but that a bad guy might try and use that to his advantage by breaking things up for a while - and that's when you throw in a dive from the babyface to show that the heel can't get away that easily, but maybe end the match on a heel finish to show that sometimes, cheating works and bad guys win. Everything after that is basically left wide open, within reason, as now the crowd understand how things work. That's - very broadly - my philosophy, anyway.

[Supremo]

Forget the dives to the outside, it’s the amount of Canadian Destroyers that wrecked my head on this show. Imagine being Matt Jackson, where your big spot is going to be a Canadian Destroyer from the ladder through the table. Then imagine sitting there for three hours, watching every other fucker doing the same move throughout the show. You’re the Vice President of the company, mate. Have a word.

I like that AEW is clearly a less restrictive environment, where guys aren’t taught or forced to work the exact same style, but there still needs to be some level of control. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Supremo