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tiger_rick

AEW Fight For The Fallen

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Fair enough then. I hope they manage to win you over during this AEW stint.

Although calling Sami Zayn a spot monkey is a big crime itself...

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30 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

Also, calling them out for 'not selling' is outrageous considering Matt Jackson's two year long story where the focus was him selling his back in every single match.

Sorry but that run was hammy "let's show the internets we can sell and do psychologies~!" crap

Edited by sj5522

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45 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

I can't buy into that critique of them just being 'spot monkeys' seeing as they have the traditional tag-team wrestling formula down to a tee. They know when and where to pull out the big spots and bumps, and they also know how to do a nicely paced, old-school tag match as well as spot fests and more epic, story-based matches.

Also, calling them out for 'not selling' is outrageous considering Matt Jackson's two year long story where the focus was him selling his back in every single match.

Honestly, I think most of the Bucks bad rep (as small as it is, nowadays) comes from people's preconceived notions being cemented by no-context GIFs online, Jim Cornette's ranting and our human nature to not change opinions once you've all ready started it (not saying this is you CB, just a general observation of what I've seen).

The young Bucks do not employ tradiotional tag-team psychology at all, in my opinion. They sell so little that opponents either work their style and do 1000 spots or look stupid because their stuff will seem inaffective because of the lack of selling.  It would also be great if they managed to do one push up by the time the tv-show comes around. I mean, your face is your face, so that's just a shame..but their bodies look really bad.

They also need to stop yelling stuff during bumps/moves. It takes away from the bump/move and the next few seconds as I'm trying to figure out what they yelled and/or why they yelled it. 

Very athletic dudes, though, but so are a whole bunch of dudes. Some of them with a better look and mindset.

Edited by Whistling Skull
My fingers are fine.

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30 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

Fair enough then. I hope they manage to win you over during this AEW stint.

Although calling Sami Zayn a spot monkey is a big crime itself...

He did start off as one, as El Generico. I remember seeing him in IWS back in the early 2000s, and he was the epitome of a Johnny Kickpads - shit look, shit wrestling. He was amongst a host of guys the internet fans liked (and I might have liked, briefly, at one point) that I just didn't get. He's definitely someone who benefited from NXT, as is Steen.

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As someone who hasn't followed the Bucks a huge amount throughout their careers, I definitely fall on the side of having seen them display more 'spot monkey' tendencies than ever showing old school tag values. It's not a criticism as such - they're great at what they do after all - but yeah, it'll definitely be interesting to see how the two teams come together.

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16 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

He did start off as one, as El Generico. I remember seeing him in IWS back in the early 2000s, and he was the epitome of a Johnny Kickpads - shit look, shit wrestling. He was amongst a host of guys the internet fans liked (and I might have liked, briefly, at one point) that I just didn't get. He's definitely someone who benefited from NXT, as is Steen.

To be fair that was almost 20 years ago (which overwhelms me with terror)

Generico was an absolutely fantastic babyface worker for a pretty long period before he was ever signed by WWE. How well he transitioned to working without the mask was impressive too. Its a shame that probably at least 75% of his post NXT run has been a total botch though.

I'm hoping CIMA doesn't work as a singles regularly going forward. He's so much more effective as part of a team at this point in his career.

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1 hour ago, sj5522 said:

Sorry but that run was hammy "let's show the internets we can sell and do psychologies~!" crap

Ah come on now, surely this is the definition of "Damned if they do, damned if they don't"? People complain of them no selling, then they complain when they lead a massive story about them selling. They can't win.

I always point people towards the match they had with Omega & Ibushi as proof of them being incredible at all aspects of tag wrestling. Christ, you had Matt Jackson literally force his best friend to end him by his own hand. Incredibly compelling, well-built story and an incredible climax.

All the 6-mans with other members of Mount Rushmore, their violent feud with Candice and Joey, the initial babyface run with the likes of The Dynasty and MCMGs, their heel turn where the crowd turned on them in favour of Omega/Chuck Taylor (and they re-worked the match half-way through to reflect that), the drama during their tag title defences and their willingness to go balls-out no matter how many people are in the building...they've built an incredible body of work. They'll always be a point of contention though, for whatever reason, but they practically revived tag team wrestling at a time when not many people gave a fuck.

31 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

He did start off as one, as El Generico. I remember seeing him in IWS back in the early 2000s, and he was the epitome of a Johnny Kickpads - shit look, shit wrestling. He was amongst a host of guys the internet fans liked (and I might have liked, briefly, at one point) that I just didn't get. He's definitely someone who benefited from NXT, as is Steen.

Oh dude, we are going to throw down, my man!

Of course he isn't going to be massively impressive during that IWS run, as he was a rookie. But he had something, even back then, that resonated with fans. He had a great gimmick, knew how to work a crowd, oozed charisma and was incredibly innovative with in-ring offence whilst being incredibly entertaining outside of the ring. I could see that in 2004, as did a large chunk of wrestling fans and promoters. 

By 2005, he was very good and an asset to any card he was on. 

By 2006, he was a main card act, without a doubt. One look at his PWG battles with CIMA and PAC can confirm that. He was a superstar.

By 2009, he was an excellent all-rounder who could main event any show.

Although he had a great time in NXT and one of my favourite matches ever (vs Nakamura), El Generico is one of my all-time faves and he'll always over-shadow any work he does as Sami Zayn. He cottoned on to what pro wrestling was so fast, a complete natural in my eyes. 

You could possibly argue him being a spot monkey in 2004. Possibly. Maybe. After that though, he had the fundamentals down.

All of the above can be attributed equally to Steen too.

Edited by Accident Prone

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14 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

Ah come on now, surely this is the definition of "Damned if they do, damned if they don't"? People complain of them no selling, then they complain when they lead a massive story about them selling. They can't win.

I always point people towards the match they had with Omega & Ibushi as proof of them being incredible at all aspects of tag wrestling. Christ, you had Matt Jackson literally force his best friend to end him by his own hand. Incredibly compelling, well-built story and an incredible climax.

If I thought the selling was actually good, I'd have praised it.

To me, Bucks v Golden Lovers was three guys doing bad impressions of HBK at his worst, and a weirdly off-step Kota Ibushi. Perception is an interesting thing.

I couldn't get into any of that 2nd run of Lovers stuff because it felt to me like a Kenny ego trip that hurt Ibushi, so he could get a docu made about what a brave bisexual wrestler he is, and how he's changing the world. Not all that surprised Kota wants nothing to do with AEW seemingly.

Edited by sj5522

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17 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

To be fair that was almost 20 years ago (which overwhelms me with terror)

Generico was an absolutely fantastic babyface worker for a pretty long period before he was ever signed by WWE. How well he transitioned to working without the mask was impressive too. Its a shame that probably at least 75% of his post NXT run has been a total botch though.

 

8 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

Oh dude, we are going to throw down, my man!

Of course he isn't going to be massively impressive during that IWS run, as he was a rookie. But he had something, even back then, that resonated with fans. He had a great gimmick, knew how to work a crowd, oozed charisma and was incredibly innovative with in-ring offence whilst being incredibly entertaining outside of the ring. I could see that in 2004, as did a large chunk of wrestling fans and promoters. 

By 2005, he was very good and an asset to any card he was on. 

By 2006, he was a main card act, without a doubt. One look at his PWG battles with CIMA and PAC can confirm that. He was a superstar.

By 2009, he was an excellent all-rounder who could main event any show.

Although he had a great time in NXT and one of my favourite matches ever (vs Nakamura), El Generico is one of my all-time faves and he'll always over-shadow any work he does as Sami Zayn. He cottoned on to what pro wrestling was so fast, a complete natural in my eyes. 

You could possibly argue him being a spot monkey in 2004. Possibly. Maybe. After that though, he had the fundamentals down.

All of the above can be attributed equally to Steen too.

Sorry guys - I saw him during these times, and I just found him frustrating, at least from an in-ring perspective. Lots of character work, lots of charisma, worked the crowd outside the holds, and then seemed to fuck it all with brain-fart spots at the wrong time that didn't fit with the rest of the match. Was like watching a jeweller crafting a beautiful, intricate piece of filigree silver, then try to finish it off with a sledgehammer. To be fair, compared to the rest of the indy shite he was on cards with, he would've looked like a main eventer.

Steen was even worse. I never bought that he was all that good, and when he first showed up in NXT, my opinion was no different. Great outside the ring, shite in it. But he's definitely evolved into something excellent.

Anyway, that's just my personal perspective, and as a result I didn't enjoy them all that much - sucks to be me, I guess. And ultimately it's all much of a muchness - whatever one's opinion of how they were before, they're most definitely legit main-event talent now, and I'm glad to see it. Just a shame I don't watch WWE; I hope eventually they'll show up somewhere else.

 

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That was a fairly consistent view of Steen in some quarters. 

Around 2010/11, I'd say Generico was one of the best in the US, though. His match with 123 Kid in CHIKARA is a belter.

 

What we need to remember as well is that "psychology" doesn't just mean "working a body part like the Andersons". The Young Bucks know that their audience expect a certain kind of match out of them, and they construct their matches around that expectation, and tend to follow a formula of steady escalation so that the biggest, flippiest, and most extravagant spots all come toward the end, as the crowd reaction is peaking. There's a psychology to that as well - I'd say a spot monkey is someone who would hit the 450 splashes and somersault planchas from the opening bell, not someone would wait for the optimum moment.

Steen was similar - how much of his style was more "indie" pre-NXT because that was the expectation of the ROH and PWG audiences, not because he wasn't capable of working differently?

The Bucks aren't always to my taste, and I tend to find their matches a combination of exhausting and forgettable, and the "selling the back" thing almost holiday camp levels of overwrought rather than an example of their storytelling ability, but they're capable of great wrestling.

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I think El Generico was great for most of his career. So graceful. His finisher didn't make a lot of sense for his gimmick and style, but it looked nuts and his psychology was top-notch.

 

Mind you, by psychology I mean the actual psychology of how you're supposed to put a match together, properly.

Example: You can use proper psychology to give the vibe of a short, athletic match, even though the wrestlers are on different levels, athleticaly speaking. 

Selling one thing the entire match, for many matches on end, does not count as good psychology. It's having an anchorpoint to get back around to, but it's such a small part of telling a story, that you can't always rely on it being compelling enough. Unless you're a reeeeally good sell, which some guys just are.

 

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They’ve added Jimmy Havoc, Joey Janela and Darby Allin Vs MJF, Sammy Guevara and Shawn Spears to the event.

Edited by TildeGuy~!

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As MeltzGuy~! says, they've added the six man on the latest Road to video. This is a strange old thing consisting of some highlights from Fyter fest that do make the thing look brilliant, it has to be said, but with numerous replays of that chairshot and a lovely close-up of Cody's wound which I didn't enjoy at 3am. Then it has a long promo with Brandi talking about he skating career. I'm not sure it sells the match at all but it was interesting. Liked the legitimacy of announcing a sponsor and having them sell it. Good stuff.

The six man is an odd one because 5 of the guys come across as heels and the video below shows MJF having a go at Spears when they're team mates. Be interesting to see if they play on that or decide it does't matter.

 

Edited by tiger_rick

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I can't believe I'm reading that the Young Bucks are psycological masters and El Generico ozzes charisma!

Fair play to the bucks, they were one of the worst things I've ever seen as Generation Me, but got themselves over. When AEW started I wanted to like em, even gave Being The Elite a go, but all they do is flip.

They look awful, can't work in the ring, can't work a crowd who arent smarks who already like them. Just terrible like.

Cody is the polar opposite, fast forward material for me in WWE. Generic and cookie cutter. Now he arguably has the best psycology in the business.

The fact that this new promotion has the bucks in such a key role makes me seriously doubt its future prospects.

Edited by Maverick

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They sure know how to make hype videos. They have nailed that already

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