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UFC Sacramento: De Randamie vs Ladd - Jul 13 ūüáļūüáł

Who wins and how?   

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The issues with the Chuck fight had less to do with corruption on the part of the CSAC and more to do with the framework put in place for fighter medical clearance. The truth, and it's something most fans didn't want to hear after the event, is that Liddell passed all medical tests without issue. 

It's not as though the Commission just looked him up & down and handed him a licence, they ran him through the physical, ophthalmologic and neurological testing they do every fighter who applies for a licence to fight in California. Neurological testing that can only be carried out by a fully licensed neurosurgeon or neurology specialist.

Liddell passed.

What should they have done? Ignored the green light from a neurologist and deny him a licence based on him "having a dodgy chin" eight years previously? 

Have Commissions been known to bend the rules in some ways? Of course, there's no doubt higher profile fighters are given more leeway when the procedure involves the actual Commission itself deciding on punishments and so on. But in the case of medical clearance we're then suggesting that either the practicing and fully licensed specialists who operate as a medical professional in their everyday job is willing to fudge a medical and risk someone's health, their livelihood and even a prison sentence, or that the Commission would actively ignore the results of these tests in order to proceed with licensing anyway.

That's not happening. 

This is why I consider the Herb Dean situation different from the backstage medical authorities on weight cutting. Is Herb a professional referee? Yes, but that's nowhere near the level of expertise that a physician has in their job. And the physician didn't see any reason to pull Ladd from the event. Was it tough for her to make weight? Absolutely. Was she happy to be doing it? No. Was her life in danger? Unless we're accusing the doctors of sleeping on the job, the answer is no. 

Again, if average Joe's like us were looking at her and thinking "damn, she's suffering" there's a good chance the doctors had been keeping a close eye on her.

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Good to know that they can go "you are clearly absolutely fucked but your life isn't in immediate danger" and that's sufficient to let you fight.

Embarrassment of a main event on every level tbh. Everyone shat on it as a headliner, Ladd totally fucked herself up with the cut, De Randamie dropped her immediately and then a dodgy stoppage to top it all off.

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12 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

Good to know that they can go "you are clearly absolutely fucked but your life isn't in immediate danger" and that's sufficient to let you fight.

As harsh as it sounds, some people just have a lower threshold for that kind of thing. Ladd looks pained and as if she's on her last legs, while the likes of Conor and DC can take shit to the very limit of human endurance with a steely determination. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

My point is that regardless of how many times she grimaced or how hard it looked for her, she'll have been getting monitored in the same way that has seen other fighters pulled, including the likes of max Holloway if I recall correctly. If she had been in danger the docs would have known.

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7 hours ago, David said:

The issues with the Chuck fight had less to do with corruption on the part of the CSAC and more to do with the framework put in place for fighter medical clearance. The truth, and it's something most fans didn't want to hear after the event, is that Liddell passed all medical tests without issue. 

You have said it yourself. On that particular occasion, the frameworks in place were not stringent enough to deny someone a licence who really should not have been fighting. It might not have been corruption, but it was incompetence. Moreover, even though Liddell passed the tests, the commission still had the option of denying him a licence to fight Ortiz. They could have concluded that the fight was a mismatch and not sanctioned it. Overall, the CSAC has been known to be quite liberal when it comes to approving fights.

I can think of cases beyond the CSAC as well where questionable fighters have been sanctioned to fight. Should the Texas commission really sanctioned the Kimbo vs Dada 5000 fight? Or should the Ontario Commission had sanctioned Belfort to fight Jones in 2012 after his questionable lab test? Fighters do, for whatever reason, occasionally slip through the cracks and enter the cage in little condition to perform. 

7 hours ago, David said:

This is why I consider the Herb Dean situation different from the backstage medical authorities on weight cutting. Is Herb a professional referee? Yes, but that's nowhere near the level of expertise that a physician has in their job.

In his case, I have no idea whether Ladd was fit to fight or not. If pressed, I would say that Dean simply goofed in the heat of the moment. 

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31 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

You have said it yourself. On that particular occasion, the frameworks in place were not stringent enough to deny someone a licence who really should not have been fighting. It might not have been corruption, but it was incompetence.

We can have the opinion that the frameworks in place aren't stringent enough, but I'd assume that the CSAC are liaising with professionals when those frameworks are put in place. I seriously doubt any commission wants a death or serious injury on their doorstep. I don't see any corruption there.

33 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Moreover, even though Liddell passed the tests, the commission still had the option of denying him a licence to fight Ortiz. They could have concluded that the fight was a mismatch and not sanctioned it. Overall, the CSAC has been known to be quite liberal when it comes to approving fights.

They can't deny someone a license without good cause though, especially someone as seasoned and popular as Liddell. This wasn't some schmuck in his 40's looking to fight, it was a guy with a 20 year career who's been in there countless times and who has the resources to make sure he's prepared properly.

The fight wasn't a mismatch either. It was two older veterans facing each other, not Liddell facing a young up & comer. Was Ortiz the favourite? Yeah, but would we have been all that surprised if it was Liddell who caught him first and the fight got stopped with Tito turtling up under a barrage of shots? I wouldn't have. 

I wasn't a fan of the fight, but I strongly believe that if a fighter passes the required tests and is deemed fit and able then he should be allowed to fight if a promoter will entertain him. 

39 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

I can think of cases beyond the CSAC as well where questionable fighters have been sanctioned to fight. Should the Texas commission really sanctioned the Kimbo vs Dada 5000 fight? Or should the Ontario Commission had sanctioned Belfort to fight Jones in 2012 after his questionable lab test? Fighters do, for whatever reason, occasionally slip through the cracks and enter the cage in little condition to perform. 

It's always going to be the case that some commissions find it harder to provide the service required, be it down to funding, the popularity of combat sports in that state or whatever, but I honestly believe that the doctors who are working with those commissions are doing their jobs. Should Kimbo and Dhafir Harris been allowed to fight? Again, it was shown that Kimbo passed the medical required to fight, and he had his heart checked and the results recorded as "normal" for an adult.

There's every chance that Kimbo would have died regardless of him fighting in February. Sometimes shit happens, especially when you're talking about a gap of four months between the fight and his passing.

With Belfort, I don't think that the issue was a commission decision to make, was it? At that time it was between the fighter and the UFC I think? We were back in the days of TRT exemptions and suchlike, so it's hard to really blame the commission on that occasion.

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45 minutes ago, David said:

I seriously doubt any commission wants a death or serious injury on their doorstep. I don't see any corruption there.

Of course they don't. But some commissions are more liberal than others. 

Again, it's not always a case of corruption. People make wrong judgement calls sometimes. Even qualified people. 

45 minutes ago, David said:

The fight wasn't a mismatch either. It was two older veterans facing each other, not Liddell facing a young up & comer. Was Ortiz the favourite? Yeah, but would we have been all that surprised if it was Liddell who caught him first and the fight got stopped with Tito turtling up under a barrage of shots? I wouldn't have. 

In the days leading up to the event pretty much everyone thought it was a mismatch. The only argument in Liddell's favour was Ortiz's theory that Chuck was sandbagging in the pre-fight workout. 

You said yourself here that someone of Chuck's age and condition should not really be fighting - 

 

45 minutes ago, David said:

Should Kimbo and Dhafir Harris been allowed to fight? Again, it was shown that Kimbo passed the medical required to fight, and he had his heart checked and the results recorded as "normal" for an adult.

There's every chance that Kimbo would have died regardless of him fighting in February. Sometimes shit happens, especially when you're talking about a gap of four months between the fight and his passing.

While Kimbo's heart was checked and recorded as normal, other information was not disclosed by the Texas commission. Such as the unknown medication the fighter was on that wasn't disclosed in the paperwork provided. And his EKG results. Besides, DADA 5000 was arguably the bigger health hazard on the night. 

45 minutes ago, David said:

With Belfort, I don't think that the issue was a commission decision to make, was it? At that time it was between the fighter and the UFC I think? We were back in the days of TRT exemptions and suchlike, so it's hard to really blame the commission on that occasion.

Correct. The commission was unaware that Belfort was even using TRT. As far as the Ontario commission was concerned, any details related to testosterone exemptions were spelled out in the contract between the UFC and its fighters,

That's obviously not the commission' fault, but it shows that under certain circumstances fighters can enter the cage when they shouldn't be allowed to. 

Edited by jimufctna24

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I watched the prelims as they happened live but only got to watching the rest just now. While the main event stoppage was absolutely a terrible one- Herb was pulling De Randamie away before Ladd even hit the canvas- the co main event was almost as bad in my opinion, for a different reason.

I hate to say it, but the Faber-Simon fight felt like the referee getting caught up in the moment. The crowd was super behind Faber, the California kid coming back from retirement in his home state. They absolutely exploded when Faber scored the knockdown, but Simon took a single punch on the ground and was scrambling to grab Faber. I've never seen a referee literally pry two fighters apart to force a stoppage the way Mike Beltran did. He ripped the two fighters apart, Simon was defending and looking to fight back. But that doesn't make as good a story as the 40 year old legend sparking the young upstart. Think Beltran reacted more to the roar of the crowd over the action that was actually happening.

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15 hours ago, jimufctna24 said:

Of course they don't. But some commissions are more liberal than others. 

Again, it's not always a case of corruption. People make wrong judgement calls sometimes. Even qualified people.

But Ladd was fine, so it was the correct call to let her fight. 

15 hours ago, jimufctna24 said:

In the days leading up to the event pretty much everyone thought it was a mismatch. The only argument in Liddell's favour was Ortiz's theory that Chuck was sandbagging in the pre-fight workout. 

You said yourself here that someone of Chuck's age and condition should not really be fighting

Oh absolutely, he shouldn't have been fighting in my opinion, but that doesn't mean he should have been prevented from doing so if he passes the required medical tests. I didn't think it was something he had to be doing at this stage of his life, but there's a difference between me saying he probably shouldn't be doing it and actually stopping him. It's his call, he's a grown man and if he wants to be a fucking idiot and go in there and throw hands at his age then it's his choice, providing he passes the medical tests. Which he did.

15 hours ago, jimufctna24 said:

While Kimbo's heart was checked and recorded as normal, other information was not disclosed by the Texas commission. Such as the unknown medication the fighter was on that wasn't disclosed in the paperwork provided. And his EKG results. Besides, DADA 5000 was arguably the bigger health hazard on the night.

Yeah, the information that wasn't disclosed by the commission relates to tests and medical information that is held by two other medical practitioners who have different procedures when it comes to releasing sensitive information. I'm sure I'd read that they made the information available to authorities in case of any investigation, but weren't happy with it being made public.

The truth is, if there was some sort of dastardly plot at play we'd have heard about it. There'd have been criminal investigations, lawyers, court cases and people getting sued. The reality is, there was nothing to suggest that either man shouldn't be fighting.

One thing we need to bear in mind is that this is fighting. I could pass a medical in hospital tomorrow, then get into a fist fight the day after and end up suffering medical complications due to that. It's how it goes, sadly. The only way for anyone to know how Harris' body was going to react to being in a 15 minute fist fight in a high pressure situation would have been to put him in a 15 minute fist fight in a high pressure situation.

There's only so much that a doctor can test for, and at the moment they're carrying out testing to make sure that when a fighter walks into the cage they're healthy and have no underlying issues. But this isn't ballroom dancing, its two people knocking the shit out of each other. 

When you actually think about it, it's probably surprising that more people haven't died. Someone removed from the MMA bubble would probably view such news as "well, if you get into a fucking fight with someone in a cage there's a chance you'll do yourself some serious harm," while the MMA fan would look past that and say "well, why didn't the doctors pick up on any health issues? It's the commission's fault surely?!?!"

Why do we look past the obvious? Because in a way we watch so many of these fights that we see them as normal. That's not the case for the average person. My other half still shudders when she sees UFC fights with guys getting punched in the face and kicked in the head, and rightfully so. I've just become numb to the actual horror of it because I've watched it for so long.

15 hours ago, jimufctna24 said:

That's obviously not the commission' fault, but it shows that under certain circumstances fighters can enter the cage when they shouldn't be allowed to.

Well, you'd said that maybe the commission shouldn't have sanctioned Belfort to fight? I was just pointing out that they didn't really play a part in any wrongdoing.

If we all take a step back for a second the real truth is that no person should be entering a cage to fight with another human being. The whole thing is fucking terrible in reality. Two people in a confined space trying to hurt each other while a paying crowd bay for blood and lose their shit when one fighter gets knocked out in brutal fashion. It's sick.

When we consider what it is we're actually watching we realise that there's only so much a doctor or a commission can do. The fighter is taking a huge risk by doing this stupid shit, so the onus is really on them, not the state or the doctor to prevent them being seriously hurt or even killed.

Same goes for weight cutting. If people like Ladd are hellbent on treading that line between being healthy and destroying their own body in order to gain as much of an advantage as possible when they go into a cage to try and hurt another person then who's really to blame? If a person is intent on being stupid is it really the authorities job to stop them? 

If you ask any doctor worth their salt they'll tell you that weight cutting isn't healthy. What these medical professionals are tasked with is monitoring these dumb as fuck individuals to make sure they don't go too far. That's it, simple as that.

Ladd made it through the ordeal with her vital signs still in good shape, which means the doctor did his or her job. If she suffers any lasting health issues in later life that's on her. The doctors will always tell you that cutting weight is a bad idea.

Edited by David

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Do you actually know what tests are administered and what the parameters are?

From what I read, the doctors said that Ladd was not dangerously de-hydrated. I would argue (actually I wouldn't really argue as I don't want to get drawn into an insanely tedious back and forth) that there's a difference in the risk between being really dehydrated for normal every day functioning and being dehydrated in advance of a fight against another professional fighter.

Sadly when it comes to the fight business, money talks. We see that all the time with things like Punk being licensed to fight, McGregor fighting Floyd, Liddells comeback etc. It would be so problematic to cancel a featured bout at 24 hours notice so its not going to happen unless its totally unavoidable. If the doctors check someone who looks a bit sketchy and the feedback is "well, they are probably not gonna die" then the promoter is obviously going to give it the old Axl Rose GET IN THE RING, MOTHERFUCKER!.

Personally I would rather not see shot or depleted fighters compete. Had Ladd not destroyed herself to make weight, the ref might not have been so cautious. She also may have absorbed the strikes better.

(Also plz plz plz plz PLEASE fucking PLEASE stop saying "the truth is...")

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28 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

Do you actually know what tests are administered and what the parameters are?

I do, yeah. The truth is they're easily accessible on the Commission websites.

28 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

From what I read, the doctors said that Ladd was not dangerously de-hydrated. I would argue (actually I wouldn't really argue as I don't want to get drawn into an insanely tedious back and forth) that there's a difference in the risk between being really dehydrated for normal every day functioning and being dehydrated in advance of a fight against another professional fighter.

The truth is, the doctors know this. They're doctors for fuck sake.

29 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

Sadly when it comes to the fight business, money talks. We see that all the time with things like Punk being licensed to fight

The truth is, there was no reason not to license Punk. He was facing guys with a similar record to him, and he also passed the medicals and conditions required to get a license.

30 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

McGregor fighting Floyd

The truth is, this was a one-off. McGregor may not have been a boxer, but he'd been licensed many times previously as a combat sports athlete, and was an MMA champion at the highest level. There was no real reason for the commission not to sanction that fight. The circumstances all came together perfectly.

31 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

It would be so problematic to cancel a featured bout at 24 hours notice so its not going to happen unless its totally unavoidable. If the doctors check someone who looks a bit sketchy and the feedback is "well, they are probably not gonna die" then the promoter is obviously going to give it the old Axl Rose GET IN THE RING, MOTHERFUCKER!.

Yeah, I know you're being funny here, but that won't happen. The commission and the doctors aren't going to bend to the promoters wishes on matters like health where someone could get seriously hurt. Not because they really care about the fighters, but more because of who the blame will lay with if shit goes south.

The promoter can just say "well, the commission licensed them and the doctor okayed them to fight. Fuck all to do with me, guv, I'm just running with the professional opinions given to me."

The truth is, the Commission and the doctor would be held responsible, and ain't no one wanting that. 

35 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

Personally I would rather not see shot or depleted fighters compete. Had Ladd not destroyed herself to make weight, the ref might not have been so cautious. She also may have absorbed the strikes better.

Well, tough shit. So long as weight cutting is a factor you're going to see depleted fighters. And so long as there's promoters offering decent change to washed up fighters you'll see them step in there and make a roaring cunt of themselves.

My point is that the commission or doctor can't be held accountable on either. They're doing their jobs for the most part. It's down to the promoters who take advantage and put on the shows, and the fighters who allow it to happen in order to chase personal gain.

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7 hours ago, David said:

But Ladd was fine, so it was the correct call to let her fight. 

I agree,

As I already stated, I think Dean probably just goofed on this occasion. 

7 hours ago, David said:

Well, you'd said that maybe the commission shouldn't have sanctioned Belfort to fight? 

My point was more that sometimes people enter the cage in no condition to perform. And that the commission and their medical professionals aren't always have the ability to prevent that.

The rest of your post I actually agree with or at least can agree to disagree at this stage. 

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Yeah, it's an interesting subject to me (as you may have noticed) and I'm a big fan of looking at what happens behind the scenes as best I can. 

But yeah, she probably should learn to cut weight properly, Herb fucked up, and poor old Bektic got clobbered.

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