Paid Members BomberPat Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, Chris B said: I'm under the impression Kenny Omega was a genuine draw for them, so losing him plus the Bucks, plus Jericho, plus Cody was a pretty big blow for them - not sure if that's a controversial point, especially when they were openly talking a lot about expanding into the US. However 'struggling' would be a massive overstatement. I think Omega was useful to them in getting a foothold in the US market, but from what I can gather, attendance figures are up since the Elite left. 3 minutes ago, tiger_rick said: I'd love to think this lot are too bright to not have learnt that it's ancient history and to have seen and learned from TNA's daft attempt to recreate it in 2010. I'll reserve judgement on that. I'd hope so. But the Triple H throne bit and the "kill the Attitude Era" promo make me think not. Again, we'll have to see how things develop, but I'd rather they focus on doing what they do well, rather than goading WWE.  Quote This will be about finding the middle ground. For instance, lots of people think WWE is over-produced. Dean ambrose said the same thing on Jericho's podcast so that's not a theory limited to fans. Yet there are complaints from this show that it wasn't produced enough, in terms of matches. Finding the balance will be important. It's also important to ignore the ill-informed. Forget who but someone was spouting about WWE not having the same moves in every match when that's something they absolutely do. I'd love to think they have a feel for what they want to see from wrestling rather than just doing what they think a noisy group of people want. That's a big part of what has got WWE in the mess they're in. I think there's also crossed wires over what's considered "production". If I were to talk about production issues with Double or Nothing, I'd be talking about the camerawork, music cues, some of the direction being a bit naff. But considering that WWE use the term "producer" to refer to what used to be called road agents, there's confusion there, and it's harder for a fan to ascertain whether a match (or show) is "over-produced" because much of the road agent's role is invisible to us. Up until recently, WWE were very good at ensuring there wasn't too much repetition on shows, but they've fallen down in that regard. I think it was last year's Wrestlemania that featured a top rope Spanish Fly in two matches, and it's not uncommon to see the same finish repeated on a single show (both the women's and men's Royal Rumbles ending in broadly the same fashion, IIRC). When Shawn Michaels came out of retirement, the likes of Lance Storm, Stevie Richards and Perry Saturn were all told they couldn't use Superkicks any more, because it's his finish. It's that kind of thing that they could improve on, and is the downside of the "let the wrestlers make the decisions" approach - you need someone on the outside making this rule. It's not uncommon for promotions to have rules like "no fighting outside the ring in the opening match", or "no dives in the opener", or "no table spots outside of the main event" or whatever. The big dives and flips and high spots of the Bucks vs. Lucha Bros would have been a lot more exciting, and stood out more, had we not seen dives and flips in every other match, including the "Southern brawl" of Cody vs Dustin, and even the sodding Battle Royal. But, again, it's their first show, and the rules can be a little different for a "supershow" where you're just trying to showcase your best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members mim731 Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 With this being on traditional PPV, is there any timescale for when the buyrate will be released? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, BomberPat said: I think there's also crossed wires over what's considered "production". If I were to talk about production issues with Double or Nothing, I'd be talking about the camerawork, music cues, some of the direction being a bit naff. But considering that WWE use the term "producer" to refer to what used to be called road agents, there's confusion there, and it's harder for a fan to ascertain whether a match (or show) is "over-produced" because much of the road agent's role is invisible to us. Great point. When I talk over-produced, I'm talking about the writing and choreographing in WWE which harms them. I'll always defend their need to control the shows because we've seen shambolic examples from them and others down the years but they had a better blend post-Attitude Era and I think they've gone too far the other way. Like you though, I thought of the production issues with this show in the traditional sense. Poor direction particularly but also poor booking such as big spots and eliminations in the battle royal during the entrances of other people. In fairness, it wasn't as bad during the main show. The battle royal was definitely the worst aspect of the whole thing on every level. 1 hour ago, BomberPat said: But, again, it's their first show, and the rules can be a little different for a "supershow" where you're just trying to showcase your best. Another great point. This was more akin to a supershow than their production. Almost a trial. They've got in all these little acts who are doing what they do elsewhere because AEW don't particularly have an outlet yet so it was like a bunch of mini-movies rather than one big production. It's not my bag at all but I can forgive it because overall, the show was positive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members chokeout Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 3 hours ago, BomberPat said: I think there's also crossed wires over what's considered "production". If I were to talk about production issues with Double or Nothing, I'd be talking about the camerawork, music cues, some of the direction being a bit naff.  It's the one thing that stuck out for me but I think it's part of a wider issue. Wrestling production for TV is it's own beast and is totally different to anything else. You can get a professional production company in with the best equipment but if they have no grounding in how wrestling 'works' (and I don't mean that in a smarky way, I mean the basics of filming it) then you aren't going to get a smooth product. We've seen it with ITV and WOS trying to shoe horn wrestling into a Saturday night generic over produced show and killing any flow and narrative. You see it time and time again at every level of filming in wrestling and can usually spot who has filmed wrestling within a few minutes. The wider issue being that unlike any other form of production there is limited opportunities to learn how to film wrestling in a high end tv production environment. It's easier fixed in pre taped stuff but there is nowhere to hide on a live PPV and I'd be interested to see who was directing and producing the live broadcast. In their defense Battle Royals and Rumbles are a logistical nightmare to film but that would come go hand in hand with the other side of production and whoever produced the Battle Royale making sure there was no overlap in the big spots so stuff isn't getting missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, chokeout said: It's the one thing that stuck out for me but I think it's part of a wider issue. Wrestling production for TV is it's own beast and is totally different to anything else. You can get a professional production company in with the best equipment but if they have no grounding in how wrestling 'works' (and I don't mean that in a smarky way, I mean the basics of filming it) then you aren't going to get a smooth product. We've seen it with ITV and WOS trying to shoe horn wrestling into a Saturday night generic over produced show and killing any flow and narrative. You see it time and time again at every level of filming in wrestling and can usually spot who has filmed wrestling within a few minutes. The wider issue being that unlike any other form of production there is limited opportunities to learn how to film wrestling in a high end tv production environment. It's easier fixed in pre taped stuff but there is nowhere to hide on a live PPV and I'd be interested to see who was directing and producing the live broadcast. In their defense Battle Royals and Rumbles are a logistical nightmare to film but that would come go hand in hand with the other side of production and whoever produced the Battle Royale making sure there was no overlap in the big spots so stuff isn't getting missed. The indy scenes have a lot of experience wrestling cameramen; AEW should look at "raiding" for some of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jazzy G Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 (edited) All the "this is the first... in AEW history/this is (name)'s AEW debut" did my head in, but some of the other commentary was pretty good. That Alex guy didn't do too badly, reminded me of Tenay in WCW. the massive pop for Awesome Kong, only for her to not feature much in the match was a bit wasteful. Leave them wanting more, I guess. The Joshi match was very entertaining. That Magical Girl reminded me a bit of Hayabusa the way she moved. The replays of key moments from the matches reminded me of the ECW PPVs. That Cody & Dustin package was good. Set the match up well. I've always loved Dustin, and was gutted he was taken out of the tag match at the GMEX in 1993 when I was there. Cody's decent as well. They both work hard with what they're given, like their daddy used to. The schtick with that throne and the sledgehammer was a bit much. The match felt like a huge deal, though. And what a match it was. Great story, some great body language and selling. I loved the rolling back and forth to build momentum to break the figure four. A couple of tears were shed with that bit afterwards. The bits between matches were a bit stilted due to their seeming inability to read an autocue properly. I'm sure they'll iron them out. Hangman Page is definitely one for the future. Luchasaurus looks interesting as well. Jack Whitehall? Bret Hart's Dale Oliver version of his theme was alright, reminded me a bit of Bad Medicine by Bon Jovi. The belt reminds me of the IWGP title. The Young Bucks match reminded me of a Triple H match where they'd do a spot, then lay around selling in the hopes that people think it's "psychology". I also found it amusing that they'd talk about the 10 count rule in the tag team matches, but it was never needed as they'd either clear the ring on 3 or the ref would never bother counting. Jericho's entrance was nice. Omega's one winged Angel jacket was a nice touch. His music was pretty cool as well. The match was good. The commentary was pretty good as well. "Chekhov's Table" was a good call. The build around the Judas Effect elbow was nice. I guess we have a rubber match at some point down the line? Jericho's promo after was great. His big fish in a small pond character could be great. When it was good it was good, but it was never really bad, just meh at worst. Granted I didn't watch the preshow, so may have missed quite a bit of rubbish. Hopefully the tv show is good when it starts. Edited May 30, 2019 by jazzygeofferz How do you read an quiche? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Tommy! Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 1 hour ago, jazzygeofferz said: seeming inability to read an quiche properly. *cupped ball dance* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 I'm interested to see how Omega and The Bucks do on weekly live TV. Just having great matches won't cut it - how are they charisma wise? I know their core group loves them but will that translate to mainstream? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jazzy G Posted May 30, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, Tommy! said: *cupped ball dance* Bloody tablet. I should correct it really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTH17 Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 6 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said: I'm interested to see how Omega and The Bucks do on weekly live TV. Just having great matches won't cut it - how are they charisma wise? I know their core group loves them but will that translate to mainstream? I think Kenny will do fine. If there's one convincing limitation nobody has ever argued, it's his charisma and ability to make himself and the situations he's put in feel like a really big deal. It could be said his promo work comes off very hokey and cartooinish, but obviously nobody will be able to comment on his AEW output until we actually see it on television. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakashi Posted May 30, 2019 Share Posted May 30, 2019 He’s got to drop the jrpg cosplay stuff. It works for his fan base, but it must look terrible to the normals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 3 hours ago, Yakashi said: He’s got to drop the jrpg cosplay stuff. It works for his fan base, but it must look terrible to the normals. I think it’s fine for the big matches. It’s no worse than Finn Balor’s Papa Lazarou stuff, or Triple H’s WrestleMania entrances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted May 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 31, 2019 Omega can be a pretty decent promo when he puts the effort in - don't judge him too much by his NJPW work in that regard, as in Japan he tended to purposefully over-enunciate and choose his wording so that he'd be understood by a Japanese audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakashi Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 So Dave gave the Rhodes match 5 stars and the moves and flips tag match 4 3/4. Baffling he thought they were that close but, if this means anything to him, I'm happy for Dustin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted May 31, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted May 31, 2019 I never understand why people get emotional about Dave’s star ratings. It’s just one man’s opinion on how much he enjoyed a particular match. However, three stars for the Pre-show Battle Royal? What planet is he on?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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