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UFC 239: Jones vs Santos - Jul 6 🇺🇸

Who wins and how?   

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9 hours ago, Carbomb said:

I hope Till continues to get beaten. Cunt supports Bolsonaro.

You do realise that you're talking about someone who punches other human beings in the face for a living, don't you? If you're going to apply normal "is this man a cunt?" social parameters to these guys you'll end up only having a small handful of fighters you'll like.

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1 hour ago, David said:

You do realise that you're talking about someone who punches other human beings in the face for a living, don't you? If you're going to apply normal "is this man a cunt?" social parameters to these guys you'll end up only having a small handful of fighters you'll like.

I'm also aware that there is more than a binary choice of not liking combat sports at all, and liking fighters who openly support outright fascists and do racist shit for the "lols". Thus far, I'm not a fan of Cerrone, Covington, and Sonnen for being Republicans, and Till for being a Bolsonaro supporter. I'll also root against McGregor, Nurmagomedov, Jones, and Hardy for being cunts too. And even if I eliminate guys like Masvidal, Rockhold (LOL), and Rampage for just being wankers, there's still a whole array of fighters out there I want to see do well.

Besides, if there's anyone who should know this, it's probably you. You wrote off McGregor as being a cunt very early on, and I'm sure you want to see Hardy get his face mulched as much as anyone on here, but there's still a host of people you're a fan of.

And anyway: in order for those people to lose, somebody has to beat them, so obviously I'll be rooting for that opponent (unless they're worse, in which case I just won't bother watching, like I did with McG vs. Nurmagomedov).

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Yeah, but there's disliking someone for committing acts of domestic violence or being an all-round arsehole, then there's disliking someone because they happen to have particular political leanings.

Don't get me wrong, if Chael was outed as a secret Richard Spencer supporter then fair enough, but for being a Republican? I don't agree with his political choices, but I'm not going to outright cheer against him for that.

I mean, how the fuck can you not be a fan of Donald Cerrone? It's impossible!

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The extent of Thiago Silva's leg injuries, crazy. That guys stock went up in defeat, he deserves a Gustaffsson-rub from this. Hopefully he's headlining his own show in Brazil next time out.

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1 hour ago, David said:

Yeah, but there's disliking someone for committing acts of domestic violence or being an all-round arsehole, then there's disliking someone because they happen to have particular political leanings.

Don't get me wrong, if Chael was outed as a secret Richard Spencer supporter then fair enough, but for being a Republican? I don't agree with his political choices, but I'm not going to outright cheer against him for that.

I mean, how the fuck can you not be a fan of Donald Cerrone? It's impossible!

Being openly a Republican means being a Trump supporter now. To me, that means being a cunt (as opposed to just being a prick, which is what I think most Republicans are anyway). Maybe as people they're perfectly genial, but the values you have to espouse to be that kind of Republican means once you get past the surface niceties, you're probably the kind of person I'd hate. 

Either way, whether you agree with that or not, Bolsonaro is pretty much a stereotypical fascist - racist, homophobic, misogynistic, anti-environmentalist, beholden to corporate interests, and dangerously willing to use the police and military to accomplish his abhorrent goals. Anyone who supports that is beneath contempt, and if we lambast McGregor for his racist and homophobic behaviour as well as his more general cuntery (and we absolutely should), then someone like Till definitely deserves the same censure.

As a fighter, Cerrone is mint. But the interviews, the podcasts, etc. don't induce me to like him all that much. Just comes across as a typical Texan Republican dick.

Besides, why shouldn't I cheer against him for that? My business whom I choose to cheer for and against, just like you have yours. You decided you hated McGregor back when people just thought he was a loudmouth and nobody knew for certain how much of a cunt he actually was. I won't cheer a Tory, and I certainly won't cheer a fucking Republican.

Edited by Carbomb

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Bringing politics into everything is really dull and the root of a lot todays societal anxiety issues.

Plus, tribalism is the root of the worlds misery.

Anyone who can only root for people who share the same political beliefs as them is definitely a massive pervert.

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I am quite chilled when it comes to MMA fighters and their political views. Some of my favourite fighters/personalities have either supported candidates or shared political views that are in contrast to my own. Mousasi said he would have voted for Trump had he been American. He later did somewhat of a u-turn after Trump's endorsement of a travel-ban threatened to harm his career. Bas Rutten is also heavily conservative. I've seen him re-tweet the likes of Ben Shapiro and Candice Owens. Askren is meant to hold very right-wing views as well. I think he's in with the Front Row Brian/Alex Jones lot. 

Of course, I find it a bit disappointing when I watch a Bas Rutten instructional and he starts complaining about the welfare state, but I have always been able to somewhat overlook such instances. I am kinda used to it. I've grown up with the impression that most MMA fighters' political views lean to the right. Of course, there are limits. If Rutten opened one of his instructional videos in Nazi garb, I would look elsewhere. 

As for Cerrone, I have never been a fan. I have had a slight dislike of him dating back to his WEC days. He's always rubbed me the wrong way. Exciting fighter though. 

Edited by jimufctna24

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39 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Bringing politics into everything is really dull and the root of a lot todays societal anxiety issues.

Plus, tribalism is the root of the worlds misery.

Anyone who can only root for people who share the same political beliefs as them is definitely a massive pervert.

I'm not saying I root only for people who share the same political beliefs as mine, I'm saying I root against those whose values I know about that I consider to make them a bad person. This isn't a firm support of the free market or a slightly authoritarian approach to freedom of the press I'm talking about. 

You want to call me a pervert for not fucking rooting for someone who openly supports racists, misogynists, homophobes, or fascists, go ahead. If that's the case, I don't want to be "normal" or be in "normal" company. Also, fandom gatekeeping is boring, annoying, and just dissuades people from discussing things with others; I see it all the time with football and geek franchises. You've got your reasons for cheering someone or rooting against them, I've got mine.

For the record, I think corruption is the root of the world's misery, rather than tribalism, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that too.

 

Edited by Carbomb

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27 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I'm not saying I root only for people who share the same political beliefs as mine, I'm saying I root against those whose values I know about that I consider to make them a bad person. This isn't a firm support of the free market or a slightly authoritarian approach to freedom of the press I'm talking about. 

You want to call me a pervert for not fucking rooting for someone who openly supports racists, misogynists, homophobes, or fascists, go ahead. If that's the case, I don't want to be "normal" or be in "normal" company. Also, fandom gatekeeping is boring, annoying, and just dissuades people from discussing things with others; I see it all the time with football and geek franchises. You've got your reasons for cheering someone or rooting against them, I've got mine.

For the record, I think corruption is the root of the world's misery, rather than tribalism, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that too.

 

If you're not saying that you only root for people who share the same political beliefs as your own, you have nothing to worry about. In that case, you clearly do not own a flashers mack and a pair of fishnets.

My broader point is that people don't stop and enjoy anything in a vacuum anymore. Everything comes with baggage.

Darren Till supporting Bolsanaro has no effect on either my enjoyment of UFC nor global geopolitics.

It doesn't matter.

This conversation is just another waste of joy.

I miss the old, pre-twitter days where old folks genuinely found it distasteful if you spoke about who you voted for. Now, everyone airs their dirty knickers on the internet and its fucking terrible.

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23 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

If you're not saying that you only root for people who share the same political beliefs as your own, you have nothing to worry about. In that case, you clearly do not own a flashers mack and a pair of fishnets.

My broader point is that people don't stop and enjoy anything in a vacuum anymore. Everything comes with baggage.

Darren Till supporting Bolsanaro has no effect on either my enjoyment of UFC nor global geopolitics.

It doesn't matter.

This conversation is just another waste of joy.

I miss the old, pre-twitter days where old folks genuinely found it distasteful if you spoke about who you voted for. Now, everyone airs their dirty knickers on the internet and its fucking terrible.

Then why weigh in? (EDIT: Sorry, I realise that seems more aggressive than it should be. Just seems weird to me that you'd engage in this conversation if you don't find it interesting.)

As to discussing politics, I've always found that to be a myth. I grew up amongst people for whom politics wasn't separable from one's lifestyle or values. That's why it informs a lot of how I consume sports or film or TV or any other cultural texts. And I don't see how it's any different from rooting against McG or Jones or Hardy for being cunts on an individual level. You either base it on them as a fighter completely, or you base it on the whole picture of them as a person. Picking and choosing your criteria outside the cage seems arbitrary to me.

Edited by Carbomb

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ESPN were interviewing Israel Adesanya the moment Masvidal landed that knee.

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Breen's views on Jones are pretty interesting. Especially the bolded.

Quote

 

As always, Jones’ psyche is difficult to access. Just four months ago, he could’ve easily lost his light heavyweight title to Anthony Smith by disqualification if Smith wasn’t such a sportsman and opted to fight on after Jones stung him with illegal knees. Apart from his fantastic step-in elbow knockdown in the third round, Jones did almost nothing for five rounds, just idly sparring Santos at 75 percent, trying to coast to a victory. I don’t think he’s athletically regressed in any way, but strategically speaking, we have a living legend just playing with his food to his detriment. He almost blew this fight because he either didn’t take it seriously or willfully opted to fight like an idiot. The Vegas crowd booed for almost the entirety of the second half of the fight and rightly so, whether they were displeased with the lack of action or just the fact they were watching a superstar go through the motions intentionally.

I’ve seen some folks online try to ascribe Jones’ shiftless kickfighting to trainer Brandon Gibson, but I call foul on that. Gibson has expanded Jones’ standup repertoire, but ultimately, Jon Jones doesn’t go into fights with gameplans. As you might expect from such a cocksure vagabond, Jones does whatever he wants in fights. The Jackson-Wink crew gets him trained and gives him pointers on his opponent, but ultimately, Jones is no more controllable in the cage than he is out of it, when he’s crashing rental vehicles full of Funyuns, condoms and weed. Jones calls his own shots in this regard; do you really think his coaches would be upset if he put Santos on the floor and started elbowing him? This fight should have been the end of Jones at 205 pounds. He should have taken Santos down immediately, mauled him on the floor and finished him. Instead, he horsed around and almost lost everything. In fact, many fans and media scored the fight 48-47 for the peg-legged Santos. Now, instead of the narrative being Jonny Bones moving up to heavyweight to take over when vanquished rival Daniel Cormier retires, we have some people clamoring for a rematch. A rematch, against a fighter that Jones could’ve finished within 10 minutes if he had actually applied himself and utilized his best skills and stylistic advantage.

Maybe it’s a fair assessment that Jones fights down to his competition and that in his last two outings, he simply didn’t take Smith or Santos as serious threats, hence his goofing about. After all, we’re not that long removed from his rematch with Daniel Cormier, where he showed a legitimate killer instinct and finished the deal with a head kick and vicious punching follow-up. However, there’s no virtue or payoff to that instinct.

The full article is here - https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2019/7/8/20685353/progress-regress-tale-of-two-champions-ufc-239-jon-jones-amanda-nunes-mma-editorial

There are also some interesting titbits about Nunes. 

Edited by jimufctna24

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similar circumstances as when Anderson Silva fought Patrick Cote, Thales Leites, Demian Maia... maybe not to that extreme, but i see what he's saying. Someones the lack of urgency in Jones' work can be fristrating.

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I think the one thing everyone seems to be overlooking is how much a fight can change from one punch or kick. Sure, Santos was compromised with his bad leg, but he wasn't showing signs that it was going to impede him from doing what he wanted to do. He was still throwing kicks.

Jackson had mentioned in the build up that Santos was crazy and unpredictable, and that it's not easy to get a read on someone like that, and I think we saw Jones fight the kind of fight that was most likely to result in him winning. If he charges in there and tries to take Santos out what's to say he won't get caught by a crazy punch in a wild exchange? Is it worth taking that risk? Probably not.

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