The MMA general news, events and thoughts thread

[Carbomb]

12 minutes ago, David said:

Sorry mate, but that's nonsense. Zingano came in with a gameplan, just like every other fighter who faced Rousey, and she couldn't get it done. She got pressured, had her gameplan ripped away from her and got handled. She "lost her head" because she saw that her gameplan, which she admitted was "to try and get through the first few minutes and then reset from there" had no chance of working.

Seriously, what? Correia who lost by armbar to Irene Aldana? I think you're buying into popular revisionist history here mate. A lot of the MMA fanbase is bitter towards Rousey because she came, she saw, she won, she made a shitload of dough, then fucked off. 

Was her striking top class? No, but we're talking about an Olympic bronze medal winner in Judo. She's not a chump who's losing to the likes of Bethe fucking Correia.

Like many male fighters who dominated in the early days of MMA, she was a specialist. Her game was a ground game, and she could throw you there in a hurry. Was she the greatest female MMA fighter of all time? No, but that doesn't mean she was really shit all along. 

It's quite funny really, because I clearly recall on this forum when everyone thought she was a phenom, and buying into Joe Rogan's ridiculous Tyson comparisons, how Cyborg was "scared" of her and other shite like that. I said that she was very good at one aspect of the game, and that was enough to see her succeed because female MMA wasn't long on the scene at the top level. She was a specialist and a hell of a legit athlete in an era when women's MMA didn't have many of them. The division at the time didn't really interest me, because I knew she was so far ahead of most fighters skill-wise that she'd beat most of her opponents with ease if she could get them to the floor.

I argued for pages with people on here that Cyborg would beat her because she wasn't big enough or strong enough to get Cyborg to the floor. It eventually happened with Holm and then with Nunes. 

Now it seems everyone who thought she was the mutts nuts now think's she was a sham all along, and that some of the fighters she handily defeated would suddenly beat her nowadays. 

That's not true. She was a very good fighter with an incredible Judo pedigree, sub-standard striking, and a top class athlete. That's what she was then, and that's what she still is when you look back on her career. 

I've got a lot of time for your posts, David, and don't think you deserve anywhere near the pelters you usually get, but you're not half a nob sometimes. Never at any point did I say I always thought Rousey was a sham or that she was shit all along. I even said that we were talking in hindsight. I never denied I bought into the hype, and I don't think anyone else on here has, either. 

And I didn't say Zingano didn't come in with a gameplan. What I said was that she didn't have a gameplan that worked, that Holm laid out the gameplan that would beat Rousey, and it was a blueprint that other strikers could've taken advantage of now that they knew what it was. Not being able to figure out the gameplan before Holm doesn't mean they couldn't stick to one that someone else had found, does it? Once Holm solved the Rousey puzzle, especially with Rousey's seeming complacency about her game overall, I'd say there's a chance that a striker could've seen that strategy, implemented it, and beaten Rousey later. Doesn't mean I don't think or didn't think Rousey was a world-class judoka with an armbar to give people nightmares.

EDIT: And wand's gone and posted why I'm probably wrong about Correia and Zingano without being a shnite about it.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Carbomb

[David]

Just now, Carbomb said:

I've got a lot of time for your posts, David, but you're not half a nob sometimes.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have to pipe up when you're posting a load of old cobblers.

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

And I didn't say Zingano didn't come in with a gameplan. What I said was that she didn't have a gameplan that worked, that Holm laid out the gameplan that would beat Rousey, and it was a blueprint that other strikers could've taken advantage of now that they knew what it was.

Here's what kills me. The gameplan for beating Rousey was always there. Holm beating her, no matter how insane Joe Rogan losing his shit at cage side made it seem, wasn't a revelation. The gameplan that Holm utilised is exactly the same gameplan that most of her opponents tried to implement. 

Weather the early storm, stay away from her in a grappling sense, and take advantage of her lack of striking experience. Pretty much everyone tried that. And failed. Because she was particularly skilled in closing down distance, cutting off the cage almost immediately, and once she got her hands on someone it would take a lot to stop her getting the takedown.

Another factor that I've mentioned in years gone by with Rousey is that she was big for the weight. Back when everyone was calling Cyborg a big ol' fraidy-cat for not killing herself and making 135lbs I constantly pointed out that if Rousey or the UFC really wanted that super-fight she could have easily gone up to 145lbs and still been competitive. She won her Olympic medal at 154lbs, which was the same weight that she took silver at the World's and gold at the Pan-Am's. 

She was bigger than most of the natural 135lbs fighters she faced, and it's no coincidence that the two fighters who beat her have made the move at various points to 145lbs themselves. They are also big at 135lbs, and when you're facing a bigger opponent it's not as easy to physically dominate them in the grappling game.

That was always my argument with Cyborg. If Rousey fought someone who was big enough to not be physically dominated in the grappling, and who could give her trouble on the feet she'd run into problems. Cyborg was her kryptonite in that regard in my opinion. A lot of people weren't having that, however.

But yeah, the blueprint was always there. It's not as if Holm did anything ground-breaking that made top level coaches go "oh shit! That's how it's done?!?"

They already knew, it was just being able to implement the gameplan when their fighter was facing someone big and who could grapple.

15 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Once Holm solved the Rousey puzzle, especially with Rousey's seeming complacency about her game overall, I'd say there's a chance that a striker could've seen that strategy, implemented it, and beaten Rousey later.

Potentially, but Holm successfully implementing the gameplan wouldn't have suddenly given the natural 135lbs Bethe Correia or former 125lbs fighter Zingano anything that they didn't have previously. Rousey would still have been bigger, a better grappler, and she would still have likely took their arm off with her favoured sub.

Again, Rousey probably always loses to the best in the division, but she wouldn't have suddenly been dropping L's to the fighters you mentioned.

[Carbomb]

7 minutes ago, David said:

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I have to pipe up when you're posting a load of old cobblers.

You can pipe up without being snotty about it. You know I'm happy to be corrected by someone with better knowledge, I just don't appreciate being talked down to like that.

Quote

Here's what kills me. The gameplan for beating Rousey was always there. Holm beating her, no matter how insane Joe Rogan losing his shit at cage side made it seem, wasn't a revelation. The gameplan that Holm utilised is exactly the same gameplan that most of her opponents tried to implement. 

Weather the early storm, stay away from her in a grappling sense, and take advantage of her lack of striking experience. Pretty much everyone tried that. And failed. Because she was particularly skilled in closing down distance, cutting off the cage almost immediately, and once she got her hands on someone it would take a lot to stop her getting the takedown.

Another factor that I've mentioned in years gone by with Rousey is that she was big for the weight. Back when everyone was calling Cyborg a big ol' fraidy-cat for not killing herself and making 135lbs I constantly pointed out that if Rousey or the UFC really wanted that super-fight she could have easily gone up to 145lbs and still been competitive. She won her Olympic medal at 154lbs, which was the same weight that she took silver at the World's and gold at the Pan-Am's. 

She was bigger than most of the natural 135lbs fighters she faced, and it's no coincidence that the two fighters who beat her have made the move at various points to 145lbs themselves. They are also big at 135lbs, and when you're facing a bigger opponent it's not as easy to physically dominate them in the grappling game.

That was always my argument with Cyborg. If Rousey fought someone who was big enough to not be physically dominated in the grappling, and who could give her trouble on the feet she'd run into problems. Cyborg was her kryptonite in that regard in my opinion. A lot of people weren't having that, however.

But yeah, the blueprint was always there. It's not as if Holm did anything ground-breaking that made top level coaches go "oh shit! That's how it's done?!?"

They already knew, it was just being able to implement the gameplan when their fighter was facing someone big and who could grapple.

Potentially, but Holm successfully implementing the gameplan wouldn't have suddenly given the natural 135lbs Bethe Correia or former 125lbs fighter Zingano anything that they didn't have previously. Rousey would still have been bigger, a better grappler, and she would still have likely took their arm off with her favoured sub.

Again, Rousey probably always loses to the best in the division, but she wouldn't have suddenly been dropping L's to the fighters you mentioned.

Yeah, I can accept those points. wand also made them, so on the basis of his and your posts, I accept my perspective was wrong. I got carried away.

EDIT: I do think her aura played a huge part in a lot of her opponents panicking, and, at the very least, not lasting longer.

Edited November 27, 2019 by Carbomb

[David]

46 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

You can pipe up without being snotty about it. You know I'm happy to be corrected by someone with better knowledge, I just don't appreciate being talked down to like that.

It wasn't meant to offend. You know how I am, I'm that smug twat that everyone loves despite my ability to rub people the wrong way.

47 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I do think her aura played a huge part in a lot of her opponents panicking, and, at the very least, not lasting longer.

Yeah, there is a lot to be said for the mental aspect of the game I suppose, although I'm not sure it would have made much of a difference really. Sadly, we'll never know.

[Keith Houchen]

Without meaning to hash up old ground but wasn't one of the components to Rousey losing was not so much having the better of her gameplan, but she moved away from the gameplan herself after her "Coach" convinced her she was an elite striker?  If it isn't broke don't fix it and all that.

[David]

2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Without meaning to hash up old ground but wasn't one of the components to Rousey losing was not so much having the better of her gameplan, but she moved away from the gameplan herself after her "Coach" convinced her she was an elite striker?  If it isn't broke don't fix it and all that.

I know that was the belief a lot of people had, but I'm not sure it was the case. It's not as though she started throwing hands more than she did before. It was based primarily on a throwaway comment after the Correia fight, which she won by KO, when she and her coach claimed that opponents who only worried about the armbar and grappling game would be surprised by her striking. I think that was said more to try and throw potential opponents off their game than anything else.

She tried to implement the usual gameplan against Holm, but she couldn't get the bigger woman under control quite as easily. Combine that with her striking ability and it all came undone quite quickly.

[jimufctna24]

12 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

Without meaning to hash up old ground but wasn't one of the components to Rousey losing was not so much having the better of her gameplan, but she moved away from the gameplan herself after her "Coach" convinced her she was an elite striker?  If it isn't broke don't fix it and all that.

Sort of. 

She used the same bull rushes in the Holm fight. Where she would charge forward with strikes and hope that, in one way or another, Holm would make herself vulnerable to her clinch game. Edmund had installed confidence in Rousey's striking ability without really improving it. So her striking game when charging forward left a lot to be desired. 

Even Tate was having some success on the feet in their rematch. 

 

 

[Egg Shen]

 

great fight that

[David]

Not sure if it's being discussed elsewhere, but the inevitable that we all hoped wouldn't come has been announced. The remains found in a wooded area nearby where Walt Harris stepdaughter was kidnapped are indeed hers.

Poor fucker.

[Carbomb]

Yeah, it was mentioned in the thread regarding the card he was scheduled to fight on. Absolutely horrific stuff. And they arrested a second guy as an accomplice to the first. 

[ReturnOfTheMack]

Also 1 page back in this thread.

[Egg Shen]

Walt Harris' instagram post is truly heartbreaking:

as a father, stuff like this just hits home a little more than it ever used too, so sad 😪

[wandshogun09]

Ah man, that’s tough to read. Just saw Charles Rosa (close mate of Walt) posted this little video as well from after Walt’s last fight. Look how happy she looks here...

Poor girl. Such a horrible and senseless situation. 

[jimufctna24]

 

[AdamTH17]

My toes are crossed for the next 5 months.

UFC aren't messing around with this opening stretch of 2020 are they? That's McGregor/Cerrone, a Jones title defence and Khabib/Ferguson all happening within the first 4 months. Getting excited for all of that to come to fruition with some of the names involved feels like a mugs game, mind.