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UFC 236: Holloway vs Poirier 2 - Apr 13 🇺🇸


wandshogun09

Who wins and how?   

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Absolutely. wand's point regarding him talking about working on his ground game is the most valid, I think. 

Again, something the big guns on here will know better than I do, but I'd venture to guess that the best approach for him at this stage in his career, if he wants to compete at the highest level, is to work hard on his defensive wrestling and submission, rather than wrestling and BJJ in general. With any area of study or training in anything at all, it's usually more fruitful to focus on smaller, specialised areas for quicker improvement. Adesanya needs to keep his best weapon in play, and a well-developed defensive sprawl will definitely help that. No point trying to catch up to black belts in submission or collegiate wrestlers in ground n' pound.

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Before the Anderson fight I would have agreed with you, and said that if Adesanya could focus on his defensive wrestling he'd be on his way to becoming a real force.

In all honesty, I've kind of cooled on him a bit, which sounds mental as he's just been in a fight of the year contender and won an interim title, but I was actually shocked at how much Gastelum, who was giving up seven inches in height and almost ten inches in reach, was able to hang with him on the feet.

I'd assumed (probably guilty of buying the hype to be honest) that Adesanya's standup was something special. I'm now left wondering if it really is? Wouldn't a proper standup wizard, the next Anderson Silva, the guy who's being touted to face Jon Jones, be able to make his advantages work for him against someone who doesn't just lack the height and reach, but who's striking is also fairly rudimentary at best?

If someone had told all of us that Gastelum was going to use very little wrestling in this fight, and would instead elect to stand with Adesanya we'd all have probably assumed the fight would be over reasonably quickly, with the real question being how much of a beating Gastelum could take before it would get stopped.

I've went from thinking that Adesanya had the standup side of his game sorted and just needed to be able to keep fights on the feet to wondering how he'd fare against an actual legit middleweight and not a blown up welter who can't keep his weight in check? Imagine him being caught by the same shots from someone like Romero? 

Is he the real deal? Or has he been hyped up because he's long, and he uses some funky strikes and cuts some cool-looking poses during his fights? The jury is still out for me, and I think he has a lot of holes in his standup that need addressed, never mind his ground game.

I'd likely pick Whittaker to beat him based on what I've seen so far. By stoppage.

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3 hours ago, David said:

 

Is he the real deal? Or has he been hyped up because he's long, and he uses some funky strikes and cuts some cool-looking poses during his fights? The jury is still out for me, and I think he has a lot of holes in his standup that need addressed, never mind his ground game.

 

i think its abit of both, anyone who can win a fight with style points will always be elevated faster and with more fan recognition so it's easy to see why Adesanya has been pushed quickly. His rise is also a testament to his schedule, you take your chances in the UFC and keep winning you'll get your shot, 6 wins in 14 months is good going.

As for holes in his game, i still think hes the kind of guy who will always give certain guys fits, Kelvin for whatever reason was just effective against him, put that down to timing, faith in his chin, hand speed whatever, other guys you may think would beat Kelvin may struggle against Adesanya, its just that kind of deal. As for defensive wrestling, it looks fine 86% success over 6 UFC fights is pretty impressive. Id think a huge 185lb'er with wrestling chops like Romero would give him big problems though.

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change of direction but what was peoples opinions on Jouban/Grant. It was an absolute stinker of a fight and i damn near fell asleep so i cant give a fair assessment based off the only time i watched it, but Jouban is pissed here:

i didnt think it was a robbery or anything like that, but it shows how badly a judges decision going against you can effect your career going forward. It was an awful fight though regardless.

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Yeah, I haven’t really got an opinion on the decision as my attention wandered during that fight so I couldn’t say if it was harsh on Jouban or not. But from what I did see it was a rare snoozer from Jouban. You also factor in that, despite the fact he’d probably get ID’d in your or mine local, Jouban is in his late 30s. Any loss at this stage is going to be even more frustrating. Especially when you’re not making that main event dough nor really have the time to get there. 

Edited by wandshogun09
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In fairness to Adesanya, he did say that he knows he needs to get better to best Jones, which shows he's not delusional. This version of him is definitely getting chewed up by Jones (as are most on Earth), but at least he's aware he needs to put the work in to be the best. Who knows if he closes a big gap but it sounds like he's going to give it a good go.

Certainly, if he somehow manages to best Whittaker, Yoel, Jacare etc then he's fairly undeniable by that point. That's as impressive a list of victories as anyone. Honestly, I don't fancy his chances to best all of them.

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15 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

i think its abit of both, anyone who can win a fight with style points will always be elevated faster and with more fan recognition so it's easy to see why Adesanya has been pushed quickly. His rise is also a testament to his schedule, you take your chances in the UFC and keep winning you'll get your shot, 6 wins in 14 months is good going.

Yeah, his push has been a result of the top five or so not really providing any new matchups for the champion, and injuries etc taking their toll. He's been in the right place at the right time.

15 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

As for holes in his game, i still think hes the kind of guy who will always give certain guys fits, Kelvin for whatever reason was just effective against him, put that down to timing, faith in his chin, hand speed whatever, other guys you may think would beat Kelvin may struggle against Adesanya, its just that kind of deal. As for defensive wrestling, it looks fine 86% success over 6 UFC fights is pretty impressive. Id think a huge 185lb'er with wrestling chops like Romero would give him big problems though.

Yeah, but his competition hasn't really been much to write home about, has it? If he can defend the takedown against someone like a Jacare or a Weidman then I'll change my view most likely.

15 hours ago, ColinBollocks said:

In fairness to Adesanya, he did say that he knows he needs to get better to best Jones, which shows he's not delusional. This version of him is definitely getting chewed up by Jones (as are most on Earth), but at least he's aware he needs to put the work in to be the best. Who knows if he closes a big gap but it sounds like he's going to give it a good go.

Unless his getting better includes increasing his reach then I don't see it working much for him in reality. His advantages would all be nullified against Jones, regardless of when he fights him. Or if he fights him.

15 hours ago, ColinBollocks said:

Certainly, if he somehow manages to best Whittaker, Yoel, Jacare etc then he's fairly undeniable by that point. That's as impressive a list of victories as anyone. Honestly, I don't fancy his chances to best all of them.

Yeah, I don't see him getting past all of them either. Whittaker brings everything Gastelum did, except much better and with a bigger frame. I don't see Adesanya beating Bob, although he'll no doubt be a ridiculous favourite in that fight. I'll be slinging some pennies on Whittaker there.

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6 hours ago, David said:

Unless his getting better includes increasing his reach then I don't see it working much for him in reality. His advantages would all be nullified against Jones, regardless of when he fights him. Or if he fights him.

21 hours ago, ColinBollocks said:

It's an interesting one. Jones has a reach advantage of 4.5 inches, apparently. Of course, what makes Jones so bloody great is he knows exactly how to keep his opponent away from him and, at his best, dictates the fight. I'm interested to see if an "elite of the elite" striker like Adesanya supposedly is has the sort of fight IQ to find a way to solve Jones. Again, I bring up that I doubt it, but I don't write anyone with the ability and potential of Adesanya off completely. He definitely needs to be better than the weekend, even if Gastelum did so well because he was doing well finding a way of getting inside.

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There was a nice little exchange on Twitter between Dustin Poirier and Teddy Atlas of all people after this show. 

81-B30-BD3-F913-44-CA-B1-B2-1-EC1-F6-F6-

And apparently Poirier is going to be on Teddy’s podcast today now. 

7-CEBF2-A1-8-F64-432-A-93-D6-E71-BBC8-D1

It makes a refreshing change to see the Boxing and MMA worlds meet on positive terms for once. 

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15 hours ago, ColinBollocks said:

I'm interested to see if an "elite of the elite" striker like Adesanya supposedly is has the sort of fight IQ to find a way to solve Jones.

Again, this is something I remain unconvinced of. I'm not wanting to sound nasty, but anyone with a decent striking game and a good reach advantage can look good against the guys Adesanya fought before he took on Anderson.

His striking against an old and slow Anderson, and against someone who's striking is rudimentary at best in Gastelum wasn't that impressive. Listening to the hype I expected him to look much better in both fights. I certainly never imagined he'd walk away from the Gastelum fight as busted up as he did, and being caught as much as he was in a pure striking contest.

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Guy comes from a very high level kickboxing background though, i think he's translated his skills over well because that transition isnt always smooth. I dont fancy his chances against Jones no matter what happens though because Jones has the ability to nullify and shut down any style he's faced with.

I dont see Whitaker handily outstriking Adesanya though, id just give him the edge in power. There's not anyone on Whitaker's record better really than anyone that Adesanya's already beaten outside of perhaps Romero but he's an anomoly when it comes to striking.

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12 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

Guy comes from a very high level kickboxing background though, i think he's translated his skills over well because that transition isnt always smooth.

Kickboxing background or not, I've not been all that impressed by his striking in his last two fights. I honestly believed, after buying into the hype, that Anderson would get absolutely rinsed by Adesanya in their fight. I thought it was a proper mismatch at this stage of their respective careers.

I also didn't see Gastelum going into their fight not looking to use his wrestling. I think we all believed he'd try to mix it up more. If someone had told us that the fight between them would take place mainly on the feet, and that one fighter would come out of it looking like Pob after he'd been hit by a car, how many of us would have said it would be Adesanya?

I think most of us would have taken Adesanya by stoppage if we were told the fight would stay on the feet.

12 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

I dont see Whitaker handily outstriking Adesanya though, id just give him the edge in power.

Yeah, we said the same thing about Gastelum and he managed to not only catch Adesanya, but had him in legit trouble. Whittaker is infinitely more skilled on the feet than Gastelum is. He's more mobile, he's faster, he hits harder as well in my opinion.

12 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

There's not anyone on Whitaker's record better really than anyone that Adesanya's already beaten outside of perhaps Romero but he's an anomoly when it comes to striking.

Are you being serious? Whittaker has beaten Yoel Romero twice, Brunson and Jacare. Adesanya has fought two top ten guys so far. Whittaker has fought a higher calibre of opponent, and not only that, he's looked better doing so.

As I said, Adesanya could be the real deal, but he's got a lot to do to convince me of that.

Edited by David
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Whittaker is also naturally bigger than Gastelum. And has proven to be absolutely granite tough himself in the 2 wars with Romero. I also think Whittaker is a smarter fighter than Gastelum. It surprised me just how much Gastelum was a) able to land jabs on Adesanya despite being the much shorter man and b) able to close the distance and get inside to land big shots when you’d have thought someone of Adesanya’s striking background would be able to nullify that. With Whittaker I think he’ll have an even harder time because Whittaker is bigger than Gastelum like I said. The range difference shouldn’t be as much. Plus Whittaker isn’t as basic and predictable as Gastelum about getting where he needs to be to land his stuff. 

I really like Adesanya and this will probably sound harsh but for me, the only time he’s really looked like the killer everyone claims he is was when he breezed through Derek Brunson. And even then, Brunson fought like a bit of a tit and played right into Adesanya’s strengths by coming right at him. I think Adesanya is going to have a hell of a struggle from here on in with the Whittakers, Romeros, Jacares etc. 

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Gastelum did a really good job getting inside against Adesanya. I don't think that was just because Adensanya has weaknesses in his game. Gastelum is just really good. If you recall, Weidman and Jacare were also dropped by Gastelum. It was Weidman's grappling that eventually subdued Gastelum. Which wasn't a massive surprise, given that Weidman is much bigger than Gastelum. 

I think Adesanya, Whittaker, Romero and Jacare could all beat one another on the right night. If pressed, I would say Romero is the best of the bunch. Whittaker was very lucky to beat Romero in the rematch. I felt Romero should have gotten the nod. As did most others. Romero also holds stoppage wins over Weidman and Rockhold. 

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