UFC on ESPN: Ngannou vs Velasquez - Feb 17 🇺🇸

[d-d-d-dAz]

Cain was so close to being the classiest loser in history. But he’s changed his mind, presumably after seeing the excuse the MMA community had made up for him, and is now saying he wasn’t hit and it was all knee.

Okay, sir.

[wandshogun09]

Well Ngannou vs Velasquez was an anti-climax. We waited two and a half years to see Cain fight again and it’s over in 26 seconds? Can’t help but feel bad for Cain but at the same time I’m over the moon for big Francis. He had about as disastrous a 2018 as can be with the exposing he got from Stipe and then that snoozer against the Black Beast. He pulled it back somewhat with the Blaydes KO but this has proper rehabbed him now. People can criticise Ngannou all they want but the man has first round knockouts of Alistair Overeem and Cain Velasquez on his record. It’s all well and good people saying ‘well if you weather the storm he has no wrestling’ this and that. But that’s a fucking colossal ‘if’, isn’t it? The Ngannou storm is the most terrifying storm there is in MMA. At least since Vitor Belfort got off the TRT anyway. Like me and Colin have been saying all the time, there aren’t many mortals who can weather that storm and it just goes to show what a great, great fighter Stipe really is. Saying that, I wouldn’t even be confident Stipe weathers it if they rematch. We know he can, but it doesn’t mean that Ngannou can’t sleep him if they rematch. 

Sucks that Cain’s knee went but like others said, it seems pretty clear that Ngannou’s sledgehammer punch is what forced the situation. Ngannou was kind of in a no-win situation here though. It was always going to be a case that if he beat Cain then he never really beat Cain. There was always the built in excuses of the lay-off and injuries and stuff. Whatever way Ngannou won, it wasn’t going to be good enough for some. 

Felder vs Vick was good. I like Felder much better in the cage than at the commentary desk. Good competitive fight. Vick had his moments but Felder just seemed to be a step ahead for most of it and that was reflected on the scorecards. The two 30-27s didn’t really tell the whole story but Felder definitely deserved the W. Think 155 is definitely a better fit for him than 170 was. 

Saw this as well...

Brutal. Makes the win all the more impressive. 

Didn’t like Calvillo vs Casey much. Thought Calvillo could’ve made that fight a lot easier if she’d gone more the grappling route. It’d most likely have been better to watch as well as that’s her game. Think she’s biting off more than she can chew with the Tatiana Suarez callout myself too. That’s probably not going well for her if it gets booked. Think Suarez said she’s after a Top 5 opponent next though. 

Kron Gracie had about as perfect a debut as you could’ve hoped for. Just went straight through Caceres. Loved when Kron got that initial clinch and there was an audible ‘OOOHHH!’ from the crowd. That realisation that when a Gracie gets hold of someone they’re usually fucked is still alive and well all these years later. 

Bit disappointed Rickson wasn’t there, to be honest. But from watching a few Kron interviews going in, I think that was a calculated move. He talked about not wanting to be in his old man’s shadow all the time so I’m guessing this was Rickson letting his boy have the limelight and making his own path. No doubt he’s supporting him behind the scenes. 

Luque vs Barberena was great fun. Hopefully now Luque starts getting some love. I think he’s been one of the more underrated fighters on the roster for a little bit now. Barberena is tough as nails and clearly didn’t come to lose either. It was almost cruel that he got stopped with just 6 seconds to go after the effort he gave. Loved this fight. I know it’s only February but it’s the FOTY so far for me. Or the fight of the first 6 weeks of 2019. I genuinely think it’ll still be up there for me by December. Yeah. Loved it. 

I liked this from Luke Thomas as well...

Ha! 

Fili vs Jury... 😴 these two just do nothing for me. Can’t put my finger on it. Their fights just come and go and I give no fucks. They’re decent enough fighters and there was nothing technically wrong with the fight itself but I just couldn’t get into it. My attention wandered throughout and my son’s shitty nappy seemed more interesting but from what I did see it seemed like Fili was getting the better of most of the exchanges so the decision seemed about right. 

Sterling vs Rivera was decent. Real good win for Sterling. This fight just made me think one thing though - how good is Marlon Moraes? Here’s these two going 15 minutes in a hard fought battle, yet Moraes done them both in around 90 seconds combined. Sterling can say he got lucky all he wants but when it keeps happening it’s no accident. Moraes is killing everyone. But yeah, a strong showing for Aljamain Sterling though. Possibly his best performance to date for me. 

Thought Manny Bermudez looked a right beast taking out fellow undefeated prospect Benito Lopez in a round with ease. His grappling looked lethal. Hopefully this weight miss was a one-off. 

I liked Andrea Lee’s performance as well. It was the first time I’d seen her fight and while Ashlee Evans-Smith is nothing special, I thought Lee herself looked good, especially in the boxing exchanges. 

[WeeAl]

Luque Vs Barbarena was a barnburner. Both men were just down for whatever. It felt like what a three rounder between Nick Diaz and Robbie Lawler would look like. Barbarena just peppering away with constant shots and Luque firing back with heat. Easily the fight of the night, and the judges would have had a hard time if it went the distance.

Paul Felder deservedly got the nod against Vick. Followed a great gameplan, and win or lose, Felder is going to make you earn your pay cheque against him. The collapsed lung, and broken arm during his past two fights, yet still going the distance in both just serves to underline that. I'll absolutely have some of Felder against either Gaethje or Barboza. 

As far as producing an entertaining fight, the main event was a real disappointment. However it kind of fell into what we expected in one way. I think most of us thought Cain was going to either weather a storm and win a decision/stop Francis late, or he was going out early. Unfortunately the finish left it all a little cloudy, but I'm chuffed for the big man, as he seems like one of the nicest men in the sport. 

[wandshogun09]

Yeah fuck the main event, fuck Cain’s knee and fuck the excuses. Luque vs Barberena was what you live for as a fight fan. The type of fight you sit through all those prelims for in the hope you see something like that. 

[Egg Shen]

yeh excellent fight, would Barnarena have won on the cards if he'd made it to the final bell?

As for Cain? just felt he went in there thinking he couldn't be hurt. He attacked Ngannou from the opening bell and put himself in harms way, incredidly dangerous way to fight against a bloke that fresh and heavy handed. He paid for it. I haven't read any of the knee excuse stuff yet but thats abit disappointing. He clearly hurt his knee and it effected the finish but the punch is what dropped him so its fair game.

Any word on whether or not he actually injured the knee?

[wandshogun09]

If Cain thought he couldn’t be hurt by Francis Fucking Ngannou then he’s an idiot and doesn’t deserve knees. 

The thing is, people are saying he fought stupid but I don’t think Cain can fight any other way. He’s always mega aggressive. He was like that in all 3 fights against JDS. One didn’t work out for him but we saw what happened in the other two fights. He brought the fight to JDS constantly in their second and third fights. If he’d got KO’d again coming in people would’ve been saying he fought like a div then but because it worked out everyone praised him. That’s the risk you run with that constant pressure game. To put that Cardio Cain pace on someone you have to keep pressing the action and putting them under pressure. He tried and he got sat down by a big African ham hock. It happens. It’s not like Cain usually fights like GSP or Mighty Mouse or something. He’s always been the aggressor and bulled forward in fights. 

AKA can fuck off. Javier Mendez was saying the other day that it was all the knee injury, that that punch Ngannou threw that kind of caught Cain on the back of the head/neck was what made his knee go and talked about every punch bar the uppercut that clearly is the one that put Cain down. Now Cain’s gone from saying ‘I got too close, he got me’ to acting like the punches didn’t even connect and the injury was 100% why he lost. As GSP once said, fuck off man. The Cain excuses are getting up there with the Tito excuses back in the day now. Ngannou could’ve hit him with a lightning bolt out of his arse and AKA would blame it on Cain having a toothache the night before. 

[Egg Shen]

its a very divvy way of fighting. For Cain it works out most of the time, but he's always aggressive and it cost him. The fearlessness is what makes him what he is. Still divvy though because he walked straight into the pocket against the biggest puncher in the sport.

Think its time the UFC dropped Cain as their goto guy to launch massive channel deals though. He headlined both Fox and ESPN now and he got sparked within the minute on both occasions.

oh, and Cardio Cain is the worst nickname in MMA.

[jimufctna24]

Aye, I think Cain in his prime could have been caught by Ngannou. JDS caught him in their first fight. Cain also got briefly stunned in the opening seconds of his third fight with JDS. Ngannou is a formidable fighter. He has the ability to catch pretty much anyone in the early stages of a fight if his head is in the game. 

Nevertheless, I found this interesting from Breen prior to this weekend's fight. It doesn't paint a pretty picture for Cain's longevity.

Quote

It goes without saying, like anyone, I have significant trepidation about Velasquez here. Not only is he 36 years old, but he’s been out two and a half years. More than that, he has had a lifetime of injuries: the rotator cuff, the surgeries on his knee and the bone spurs in his back. That doesn’t even begin to tell the tale of whatever physiological difficulties he may be suffering from after a lifetime of wrestling. Talk to any MMA fighter from a wrestling background and they’ll tell you two things: “Wrestling hurt me worse than anything I’ve ever done in my life” and “the only time I get hurt training MMA is when I do wrestling.” Noteworthy as well, the Tuesday wrestling practices at the American Kickboxing Academy, run by team captain and UFC heavyweight champion Daniel Cormier, might be the single most demanding MMA practices I’ve ever witnessed in my life.

 

[ColinBollocks]

Even Cain said after the fight that he fought like a tit. Just because Cain has a style, I don't think it excuses silly decision making, which Cain was honest about, initially. With Ngannou those opening two minutes are always going to be scary, but don't make it easier for him by getting close to him by grappling. Curtis Blaydes did the same thing by shooting in a couple of times, being the aggressor, and Ngannou ended up timing him a few seconds into the fight. I agree Cain probably just can't help himself, he's got a monsters mentality, but I doubt AKA would have planned for him to charge at Ngannou early doors.

By comparison, you look at the way DC fought No Time and Rumble. That's exactly what Cain should have been looking to do. Both are good starters with legit power, but DC let them have their couple of minutes before eventually drowning them with his incredible wrestling. Christ, even when DC fought Lewis he was smart enough to know to stay out of it early in the rounds and time his shot.

I suppose now he's talked himself into the knee excuse, Cain probably now thinks his game plan was solid and he'd have got that takedown if his knee didn't magically explode.

[wandshogun09]

47 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

Still divvy though because he walked straight into the pocket against the biggest puncher in the sport.

To wrestle though, he had to get in close at some point. So it’s either shoot telegraphed takedowns or strike your way in. Either way there’s massive risk when the other guy hits like a blast from a cannon.

Every time Cain loses there’s always a narrative put out there where the focus is more on how Cain beat himself and the opponent only won because he benefitted from Cain somehow cocking up. When JDS knocked him out we heard that Cain came in with his leg falling off and didn’t follow the gameplan. When Werdum got the better of him on the feet AND submitted him it was because of the high altitude in Mexico, nothing to do with Werdum himself. Now Ngannou stops him in 26 seconds and it’s the knee again and Cain fighting stupid or whatever. There’s just always something. Fuck, even when Cain vs Werdum 2 was briefly scheduled I clearly remember Javier Mendez just being all ‘so Cain’s back is fucked lads...but he should be good to go anyway.’ Yeah? Why mention it then? He was getting the excuses in before the fight could even happen. Obviously Cain’s had loads of injuries. Legit injuries. But fuck me. After the Werdum loss in particular I just realised that there’s a chunk of MMA fans who will never accept Cain losing and will have to find some way to excuse it. That loss wasn’t even a quick blowout where you could go ‘he just got caught’ like with JDS and Ngannou. That was back and forth and Werdum took Cain’s best, gave it him back and tapped him. 

 

[wandshogun09]

13 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

Even Cain said after the fight that he fought like a tit. Just because Cain has a style, I don't think it excuses silly decision making

Of course he’s going to say that though. It fits in with the mentality of ‘he didn’t beat me, I beat myself’. But that’s twice he’s rushed a bomber and got bombed out early now. 

I genuinely don’t think he’s got it in him to fight the way DC did against those guys. He’s all about pressure and constantly pushing forward. He’s always been that way. Watch any of his fights. The thing with that style is that when you win you look like a monster because people see this relentless machine coming forward and destroying opponents. But when it goes wrong you look stupid and reckless. But that’s how he’s always fought. It’s how he got clipped by Kongo three times in their fight. That was 10 years ago and he’s still the same. DC has a couple more wrinkles to his game for me. He doesn’t look as devastating as Cain did in his big wins but he can switch it up and attack or draw you in. He can do the pressure thing but he can fight more patient as well as we saw in the Oezdemir and Lewis fights last year.

I also think Cormier takes a shot better than Cain. Not to say Cain’s chinny, I don’t think he is. But DC has a concrete head. Those Rumble wins weren’t plain sailing for him either. He got floored by that Rumble right hand in the first fight and ate that huge headkick in the rematch. His insane toughness got him through it but it was rough going there early. I think that headkick Jones stopped him with would probably be a clean KO if it connected with almost anyone else. That was as flush as it gets. 

I don’t know with Cain. I think when it’s all over he’ll be a bit of a ‘what if?’ for me. If he’d been injury free and active all these years, who knows? But I just think he’s too set in his ways to fight like DC. He still probably beats a big chunk of heavyweights in the game today. But he’s not the unbeatable, GOAT that his worshippers make him out to be. 

[David]

Javier Mendes was very dubious about the Ngannou fight from the beginning, and rightfully so. He's just back from a huge layoff, injury issues, and that's what they hand him? A guy who will put away anyone he clips? 

I'd have thought they may have put Cain in there with an Overeem or something, get him back in the cage and shake off some of the ring rust. 

All the chat about it being the knee that went, or the punch that dropped him, none of it matters really. He got stopped, that's all that counts. If telling himself that he didn't get hurt by a punch is what he has to do to be able to sleep at night then fair enough, but it doesn't change the result.

Personally, I think the guys done. He's 36 now, and his body is fucked. It's a shame, he could have been the single greatest heavyweight of all time, but instead he has to make do with being one of the best heavyweights of all time. Not a bad consolation prize really.

Hopefully he fights again, maybe nabs some wins against guys outside the top three and makes some cash before his body packs in on him again.

[ColinBollocks]

 

32 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

Of course he’s going to say that though. It fits in with the mentality of ‘he didn’t beat me, I beat myself’. But that’s twice he’s rushed a bomber and got bombed out early now. 

1

In fairness, Cain was initially very classy in defeat by admitting he got clipped etc. Also maybe because AKA had a plan that involved Cain having Francis come at him for a bit, but Cain decided to go after it, as is his want. Of course, it's an excuse, but if your coaching involved the opposite of what you did, then it's probably on your mind about what a cock you made of it. I do agree that when in the cage, Cain just can't help himself - again he's got that monster mentality. It's shocking decision making on his part, which has cost him in the past, yes.

For me, the Werdum fight is probably the best example of Cain not really having many other gears when the Cardio Cain plan isn't working. Werdum absolutely schooled him all night on the feet, which forced Cain to desperately try a shite takedown against a BJJ great and, of course, Werdum could not have looked more thrilled by such a decision. Werdum made him look 2nd rate. You can maybe make the argument that whenever Cardio Cain has come up against a HW with an or of exceptional quality he's come unstuck. His three best opponents JDS, Werdum and, probably, Ngannou, he's lost convincingly. Still, Cardio Cain is better than most.

[David]

3 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

For me, the Werdum fight is probably the best example of Cain not really having many other gears when the Cardio Cain plan isn't working. Werdum absolutely schooled him all night on the feet, which forced Cain to desperately try a shite takedown against a BJJ great and, of course, Werdum could not have looked more thrilled by such a decision. Werdum made him look 2nd rate. You can maybe make the argument that whenever Cardio Cain has come up against a HW with an or of exceptional quality he's come unstuck. His three best opponents JDS, Werdum and, probably, Ngannou, he's lost convincingly. Still, Cardio Cain is better than most.

I think that's a bit harsh to be honest. He got clipped by JDS, which was fair enough. It happens. He then came back and absolutely smashed him up in their next two fights. He lost to Werdum after looking like he gassed for whatever reason, and got clipped by Ngannou. 

He's come unstuck three times in his career, and has beaten many other quality heavyweights. When he's at his best, fit and healthy, he's a fucking force to be reckoned with. Sadly, I think those days are behind him at this stage.

[Carbomb]

It seems to me that he's mainly lost to guys who can win out of nowhere with a sudden strike or sub, an aspect that's particularly amplified in the HW division. Without multiple matches against those guys, it doesn't really tell us anything about where Cain is - exception being JDS; their series rather highlighted this fact, I think. Against Ngannou, he probably wins more times out of ten than he loses, whilst Werdum has shown that he can also be as reckless as Cain, so possibly they go 5-5. 

Maybe I've misjudged, but I get the impression that the kind of opponent that would give us an idea of Cain's current level would be someone he's likely to go three or five frames with, like Stipe, or DC (which of course wouldn't happen, but that's the kind of opposition he'd provide).