Vince has BritWres in his pocket.

[BomberPat]

I'll add that I'm not aware of anyone having been crying out for a WWE UK brand before WWE themselves starting planting suggestions of it. Back in the days of the FWA et al, I don't remember anyone saying, "you know what this needs? All the same wrestlers we're already watching, but with a WWE logo on the marquee". 

I'm glad for the people who have made it to WWE, are earning decent money, and have a modicum of job security. I have friends who have made it there, and wrestlers I've worked with who have made it there, and I'm over the moon for all of them. But I'm also happy, and grateful, for the likes of Chris Brookes that have turned down WWE deals in order to do their own thing, and who have continued to give back to the UK scene outside of the NXT UK umbrella, and I'm happy for those who have signed with WOS and got a decent paid gig plus union membership and all the perks that come with it. 

Selfishly, I'm also disappointed that I'm unlikely to see a lot of these wrestlers I like again - I'm unlikely to bother going to a WWE show, as I'm not really a fan of that big arena show environment, so the more restrictions WWE put on where their talent can work, the less likely I am to get to see them again. And, as a fan, that's a real shame.

I also feel bad for promoters who are having to deal with the restrictions WWE put on their talent (aside from everything already discussed, there's an existing rule that anyone working a WWE event can't take an outside booking within seven days - and that's retroactive, so could see people pulled from events that they've been booked and promoted for, because they're working an NXT taping the following week), having to weigh up the risk of booking someone who may end up being unavailable for reasons outside their control, or weighing up whether it's worth booking a long-term angle with someone who WWE might arbitrarily decide you can't use any more. It's thrown off one of my plans for next year, and we're about as low on the indie wrestling pecking order as you can possibly get.

[JNLister]

ICW at the Hydro drawing "poorly" is a bit of a relative term. It wasn't a crowd size that justifies booking that venue and it doesn't look great, but it's probably the fourth best crowd they've ever done and comfortably among the top five UK promotion crowds this year.

It's certainly not a case of moving in the right direction, but getting 1,500-2,000 at £35 upwards for a show with no imports (other than a very late Jeff Jarrett as guest ref) is something they'd have dreamed of just four years ago.

[The Dart]

Weren’t James Storm and The Briscoes on too?

[Guest]

Number I have heard was 3000 for ICW last night. Yeah it’s half of what it was 2 years ago of that’s true, but it’s still a big number without the likes of Angle and Mysterio to pull the casuals in. Up here there’s been very little pushback on the WWE stuff that a lot of progress fans are pushing back on massively. No one seems to care that much. While they set up made it not feel a 1/5th full, if much rather it was back In the secc next year to have a full boisterous room. 

On the number drop, while some of it is creatively you hear a lotta murmurs on people not enjoying shows as much, I think the rise of so many others has stopped people wanting to travel. To see Brit wres in a full arena was just ICW for a few years. Now with progress running Wembley, fight club pro running the NEC and OTT running the national arena, there’s very little incentive there for large numbers to fork out now it can Be seen locally 

[AVM]

Not a knock on the next generation of British talent - there's a lot of ace wrestlers there- but if folk lose interest in the scene in the absence of BSS, Gibson, Coffeys, Wolfgang and the regular imports that have made the switch like Riddle and Walter what do WWE do?

For me the WWE influence on Progress is so obvious at the moment. The loss of licensed music, the toned down storylines, the absence of Ospreay, Sabre Jnr, Scurrl etc. I absolutely loved Progress two years ago, but it's losing a lot of its character.

Pleased for the talent, but unsure on how good this will be for the British wrestling scene.

[Marshmallo]

I think the biggest thing with ICW was they had an unbelievable roster 3-4 years ago which was a real moment in time one off for a company of that size. The number of guys they had who have since gone on to TNA or WWE in that timeframe is crazy. Drew on top was legitimately one of the best wrestlers in the world as well and his feud with a guy as charismatic as Grado was perfect. 

[Kfogg1991]

I think progress hasnt suffered so much yet....the last manChester chapter had 3 moty/morn candidates in it....but I can see the bad times coming I'm not completely blinded.....progress made me love wrestling again and it just really baffles me that punk rock pro wrestling who were so about the people and anti establishment sold out without thinking 

[Dolph Pigglers]

They knew what they were getting into when they got in bed with WWE.  Definitely didn't "sell out without thinking".

 

[Accident Prone]

3 hours ago, Kfogg1991 said:

I think progress hasnt suffered so much yet....the last manChester chapter had 3 moty/morn candidates in it....but I can see the bad times coming I'm not completely blinded.....progress made me love wrestling again and it just really baffles me that punk rock pro wrestling who were so about the people and anti establishment sold out without thinking 

'Selling out' is a silly thing to get mad over. You can be 'punk' whilst still making a decent living. The attitude of punk is more about being DIY-focused and contributing to the scene than sticking it to the man.

And that's PROGRESS's main sore point for a lot of people, including me. When you give a massive corporation so much leeway that it can actually damage the scene you help build.

[Kfogg1991]

22 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

'Selling out' is a silly thing to get mad over. You can be 'punk' whilst still making a decent living. The attitude of punk is more about being DIY-focused and contributing to the scene than sticking it to the man.

And that's PROGRESS's main sore point for a lot of people, including me. When you give a massive corporation so much leeway that it can actually damage the scene you help build.

I suppose selling out in that case is strong and I agree completely with what you have Said. ..

But yeah it's not punk or diy to be openly in bed with the main reason for your company and ethos of setting up and running shows. I guess it's just a real shame with progress and I really do feel personally let down by them because it was them that made me love the business again and I've not missed a chapter since the jimmy havoc as champion days...... 

[Vamp]

I do wonder if it is as simple as "it's good for the wrestlers." Its good if they're signed, getting regular work and the brand is a success. If it's not and WWE half give up on it what will happen to the wrestlers then? Will the money go down? If the WWE has made it hard for them to be booked then will they get booked? If they give up the brand will they keep the wrestlers? Since the WWE is deliberately moving against WOS (which I don't think would have been a success anyway but...) would the wrestlers have been better off if WOS succeeded? There's benefits to those contract over the way the WWE works. Obviously mute if it's dead in the water anyway. 

Hopefully everyone who's signed benefits.

It's interesting that WWE has spent so long trying to present the brand as the draw and now concede that the wrestlers have to be the draw for the NXT UK brand. We'll see if they're right. They cocked up by thinking that an offshoot of a development brand (super indy or not) would draw. 

 

 

[Carbomb]

58 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

When you give a massive corporation so much leeway that it can actually damage the scene you help build.

 

31 minutes ago, Kfogg1991 said:

I suppose selling out in that case is strong and I agree completely with what you have Said. ..

But yeah it's not punk or diy to be openly in bed with the main reason for your company and ethos of setting up and running shows. I guess it's just a real shame with progress and I really do feel personally let down by them because it was them that made me love the business again and I've not missed a chapter since the jimmy havoc as champion days...... 

And this is exactly the basis of my response to freddyjoe.

Of course, we're happy the workers are getting more money - it's better for any industry as a whole if workers are paid enough to enable them to keep working, and it's also a great motivator for any potential new talent, but the simple fact is it's not just about the wrestlers. The fans are literally the other half of the industry - without them, there is no-one to earn money from. It's their passion and interest that drives them to spend money on wrestling, and it's the specific passion of UK indy fans for the indy scene that creates the market for UK indy promotions. WWE can't have it all, even if they want it, because there are some people who just aren't interested in their product any more, and possibly never will be, and they are numerous enough in number that companies can make money from catering to them.

Maybe fans aren't owed an independent wrestling scene, but on a wrestling forum, they're absolutely entitled to voice their displeasure at WWE effectively ruining their enjoyment.

[Chest Rockwell]

On 12/3/2018 at 12:17 PM, BomberPat said:

Back in the days of the FWA et al, I don't remember anyone saying, "you know what this needs? All the same wrestlers we're already watching, but with a WWE logo on the marquee". 

I do and probably said something similar myself. Not WWE itself necessarily, but that with money behind it the production and presentation would be a lot more slick and I'd enjoy it more as a result. I always enjoyed live shows but the excitement never translated on the recorded product.

[BomberPat]

7 minutes ago, Vamp said:

 Its good if they're signed, getting regular work and the brand is a success. If it's not and WWE half give up on it what will happen to the wrestlers then? Will the money go down? If the WWE has made it hard for them to be booked then will they get booked? 

They absolutely will get booked. If NXT UK shuts down, every single one of them can still dine out on "as seen on NXT UK", "WWE UK superstar" and so on, and promoters benefit from being able to stick that on their posters. There are guys who had a cup of coffee in the WWE twenty years ago, worked so few matches that they don't appear on the WWE Network, who still use "ex-WWE Superstar" as their tagline. 

Throw in that they'll suddenly become available to a wider range of promotions again, and promoters will be queuing up to book "the return of Pete Dunne", the debut in their promotion of Zack Gibson or, again, just "NXT UK superstar" when that option wasn't previously available to them.

That might be a short-term bubble, but when it bursts, it would just be the scene returning to normality, not crashing into oblivion.

Quote

Since the WWE is deliberately moving against WOS (which I don't think would have been a success anyway but...) would the wrestlers have been better off if WOS succeeded? 

I think it's early days to say "if WOS succeeded". WOS may well still be a viable option, and WWE certainly seem to think they are. In terms of the base contract, I'd say the WOS deal, as I understand it, would be preferable to the NXT UK deal. But very few people sign with WWE because they're content with the entry level pay, they sign because wrestling for WWE is a lifelong dream, and because it's a much higher potential ceiling in WWE than in WOS. The top stars in WOS aren't going to make much more money, if any, than the lower card talent, but working WWE means there's a possibility, no matter how slim, of becoming a major star and making huge money in the long term.

 

4 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I do and probably said something similar myself. Not WWE itself necessarily, but that with money behind it the production and presentation would be a lot more slick and I'd enjoy it more as a result. I always enjoyed live shows but the excitement never translated on the recorded product.

I think that's a different kettle of fish. Plenty of people wanted there to be a viable alternative, or a big, glitzy UK product. I don't think anyone was crying out for WWE to be the ones producing it, so to frame "WWE UK" as somehow what the entire indie scene was working towards, as some people have, seems disingenuous to me.

[westlondonmist]

16 hours ago, Louch said:

Number I have heard was 3000 for ICW last night. Yeah it’s half of what it was 2 years ago of that’s true, but it’s still a big number without the likes of Angle and Mysterio to pull the casuals in. Up here there’s been very little pushback on the WWE stuff that a lot of progress fans are pushing back on massively. No one seems to care that much. While they set up made it not feel a 1/5th full, if much rather it was back In the secc next year to have a full boisterous room. 

On the number drop, while some of it is creatively you hear a lotta murmurs on people not enjoying shows as much, I think the rise of so many others has stopped people wanting to travel. To see Brit wres in a full arena was just ICW for a few years. Now with progress running Wembley, fight club pro running the NEC and OTT running the national arena, there’s very little incentive there for large numbers to fork out now it can Be seen locally 

But 3000 less tickets at £35 a pop is a huge amount. Also it meant they didn't have to book the hydro and used the venue where they sold out 4000 about 4 years ago, which would have been far cheaper. It would also mean less merch sales.