Brexit

[PJ Power]

6 hours ago, IANdrewDiceClay said:

Some decent discussion on Loose Women this afternoon.

 

I bet you Mr. Blobby talks a bit more sense about Brexit than Boris Johnson, Kate Hoey & Sammy Wilson combined.

[Hannibal Scorch]

I believe Mr Blobby blamed EU regulations for the premature closure of theCrinkly Bottom theme park and partly due to it being too much of a rival to Disneyland Paris, and having been to both, I understand why those politicians were so scared.  

[JNLister]

The Blobby thing is a follow-up from this masterpiece of broadcasting honesty:

 

[Carbomb]

5 hours ago, Fog Dude said:

So you're against separatism but back the secessionist nonsense in Catalonia? Obviously the police brutality was wrong, but the whole independence project there is insane. You realise Brexit is an act of separatism, right? The purpose of an EU army (which doesn't exist yet, so it could hardly have stepped in 14 months ago) but be to protect us from external threats, to help out when invited in times of natural disaster and to support peacekeeping missions outside Europe, not to sort out the internal divisions of a member state.

I appreciate the rest of your post, but have to disagree with this. Catalonia wanting to secede isn't nonsense when you take into account its history as a part of Spain - same with the Basque Country, and, to a lesser degree, Galicia too. Those regions have historically suffered at the hands of the Castilian-run Spanish government, especially under that piece of shit Franco (about whom, BTW, the oh-so-democratic West never did anything about, allowing that cunt to stay in power until he died), so it's understandable there are a lot of grievances against it. To be honest, given your level of knowledge, I'm a little surprised that this doesn't factor into your argument.

Prior to the Brexit referendum, you might have been able to argue that secession is nonsensical when unity is preferable, but Scotland's example provides a strong argument for why a region with a cultural and political identity of its own, especially one that diverges drastically from that of the rest of the "home nation", might want to seek self-determination. Looking at Catalonia's situation, it looks more likely they'd want to be part of the EU, but they want to do so on their terms, like Scotland did.

[Fog Dude]

6 hours ago, Carbomb said:

I appreciate the rest of your post, but have to disagree with this. Catalonia wanting to secede isn't nonsense when you take into account its history as a part of Spain - same with the Basque Country, and, to a lesser degree, Galicia too. Those regions have historically suffered at the hands of the Castilian-run Spanish government, especially under that piece of shit Franco (about whom, BTW, the oh-so-democratic West never did anything about, allowing that cunt to stay in power until he died), so it's understandable there are a lot of grievances against it. To be honest, given your level of knowledge, I'm a little surprised that this doesn't factor into your argument.

Prior to the Brexit referendum, you might have been able to argue that secession is nonsensical when unity is preferable, but Scotland's example provides a strong argument for why a region with a cultural and political identity of its own, especially one that diverges drastically from that of the rest of the "home nation", might want to seek self-determination. Looking at Catalonia's situation, it looks more likely they'd want to be part of the EU, but they want to do so on their terms, like Scotland did.

Thank you. It's possible to understand cultural and linguistic differences inside sovereign states without tipping over into full-on separatism, such as respecting the separate legal and education systems and distinct Protestant Church (Presbyterian rather than Anglican) in Scotland. I did spend a lot of time studying in North Wales too, you know, and have always been able to get a decent S4C signal and can see Flatholm on a clear day.

It's therefore equally possible to respect the three 'historical nationality' identities you mentioned without wanting to Balkanise the Iberian peninsula. Franco himself was Galician (as was Mariano Rajoy), and you're right that he was also a cunt. I know Galicia like the back of my hand and can tell you that the centre-right sadly represents as much of a legitimate local outlook on the world as the BNG do, and is more popular than secessionist options out in the countryside. FC Barcelona milk the 'holier than thou' image as the expression of an oppressed minority (that haven't been opressed since the mid-1970s) for all it was worth but wouldn't actually want to lose their guaranteed two annual Clásico fixtures in favour of a Catalan league when push comes to shove. The founder of the EAJ-PNV (the sometimes-separatist Basque regional party) was a crazed xenophobic racist whose views you probably wouldn't approve of.

I realise the PP are a bunch of bastards and the PSOE are just as corrupt, so it's sad that separatists assume you approve of all that and align with them just because you don't want to see Spain split into pieces. But he didn't invent Spanish unity in 1936 (it had about 450 years of history before that), it's just that his way of enforcing it was shit and undemocratic. There is already a sovereign state whose only language is Catalan too: Andorra! You know where the last holdout against fascism was in the Civil War? Madrid. 

So that we don't drift too far off topic... until last year, a popular Catalan secessionist slogan was 'Catalunya, nou estat en Europa' (Catalonia, a new state in Europe). Since the attempted referendum and the flight of the former leader, Carles Puigdemont, into exile in Belgium – of all places – he seems to consider himself a bit of a Julian Assange figure and made noises about not wanting to be part of the EU after all, providing whatever conspiracy theory sites our resident ex-BNP voter David has been reading with their talking points. 

[Carbomb]

2 hours ago, Fog Dude said:

Thank you. It's possible to understand cultural and linguistic differences inside sovereign states without tipping over into full-on separatism, such as respecting the separate legal and education systems and distinct Protestant Church (Presbyterian rather than Anglican) in Scotland. I did spend a lot of time studying in North Wales too, you know, and have always been able to get a decent S4C signal and can see Flatholm on a clear day.

It's therefore equally possible to respect the three 'historical nationality' identities you mentioned without wanting to Balkanise the Iberian peninsula. Franco himself was Galician (as was Mariano Rajoy), and you're right that he was also a cunt. I know Galicia like the back of my hand and can tell you that the centre-right sadly represents as much of a legitimate local outlook on the world as the BNG do, and is more popular than secessionist options out in the countryside. FC Barcelona milk the 'holier than thou' image as the expression of an oppressed minority (that haven't been opressed since the mid-1970s) for all it was worth but wouldn't actually want to lose their guaranteed two annual Clásico fixtures in favour of a Catalan league when push comes to shove. The founder of the EAJ-PNV (the sometimes-separatist Basque regional party) was a crazed xenophobic racist whose views you probably wouldn't approve of.

I realise the PP are a bunch of bastards and the PSOE are just as corrupt, so it's sad that separatists assume you approve of all that and align with them just because you don't want to see Spain split into pieces. But he didn't invent Spanish unity in 1936 (it had about 450 years of history before that), it's just that his way of enforcing it was shit and undemocratic. There is already a sovereign state whose only language is Catalan too: Andorra! You know where the last holdout against fascism was in the Civil War? Madrid. 

So that we don't drift too far off topic... until last year, a popular Catalan secessionist slogan was 'Catalunya, nou estat en Europa' (Catalonia, a new state in Europe). Since the attempted referendum and the flight of the former leader, Carles Puigdemont, into exile in Belgium – of all places – he seems to consider himself a bit of a Julian Assange figure and made noises about not wanting to be part of the EU after all, providing whatever conspiracy theory sites our resident ex-BNP voter David has been reading with their talking points. 

Thanks for the elucidation. I figured you'd be able to supply a lot more detail, although I didn't realise just how much you knew about Spain, so I apologise for my presumption there. I know about Andorra, and given the size and population of it, not to mention the fact that, for some inexplicable reason, its two heads of state are the French president and Spanish king, I could understand other Catalans not being happy with that being the only Catalan state.

That said, I honestly didn't know they were that right-wing. From your description, they sound closer to the Liga di Norte, with their politics closer to ethnocratic separatism, rather than the more left-wing civic nationalism the SNP appears to espouse.

I still don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with splitting Spain up in itself - not saying they should join the EU, but if they did, this would make it in essence a further federalisation and therefore decentralisation of Europe. Smaller, autonomous blocks should be the way to go, and, to be honest, the Spanish government's reaction to the Catalan referendum to me demonstrates they shouldn't be in charge of Catalonia. If their answer to blunting non-violent separatist sentiment is by sending in the boot boys, they're pretty much violating their social contract with those very people. I'd even go so far as to say it shows they haven't quite yet got Franco out of their system.

[Fog Dude]

2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I still don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with splitting Spain up in itself - not saying they should join the EU, but if they did, this would make it in essence a further federalisation and therefore decentralisation of Europe. 

Yeah, in the unlikely and unfortunate event that Spain does ever fracture into a dozen pieces, I'd prefer the successor states to fall under the protection of the EU as member states than to be left to flounder.

I'll PM you about the rest since it's not really about the EU or Brexit anymore. 👍

[Keith Houchen]

 

 

[David]

On 11/22/2018 at 8:02 PM, Fog Dude said:

So you're against separatism but back the secessionist nonsense in Catalonia? Obviously the police brutality was wrong, but the whole independence project there is insane. You realise Brexit is an act of separatism, right? The purpose of an EU army (which doesn't exist yet, so it could hardly have stepped in 14 months ago) but be to protect us from external threats, to help out when invited in times of natural disaster and to support peacekeeping missions outside Europe, not to sort out the internal divisions of a member state.

I have no real opinion either way, as I'm neither Spanish nor Catalan, and although 5 years in total here maybe doesn't quite fall under the "knowing it like the back of my hand" criteria, I do know Spain quite a bit and seen the reaction to the situation firsthand.

See, the problem is that people hear the term "separatist" and think that it means breaking away and becoming more insular, which isn't true in most cases. For the most part it's a case of simply wanting more autonomy, the chance to self-govern.

For me, that's the key point. We can argue about effects on the economy, what one group of multi-millionaire business leaders are saying, or what another group of similar people are saying, the prediction of what could happen and all that jazz. I saw and heard it all during the Scottish referendum, from Scotland falling to pieces and being swallowed up by the sea never to be seen again, to some short-term economic storms that would eventually even out.

The funny thing is, many of those who were arguing that the short-term storms were worth weathering in order to gain independence from the Union are the exact same people who are now saying we can't possibly risk those things in leaving the EU. The only real difference? they wanted Scottish independence, but not independence from the EU.

I've said it previously, it comes down to your own personal views and the level of risk and discomfort you're willing to put up with. I'm willing to put up with the discomfort that I'll experience in exchange for taking more controls away from Brussels and putting them back into the hands of our own democratically elected leaders.

That's my own personal viewpoint. Others may disagree, and that's fine. 

One more thing about the "secessionist nonsense..."

"Obviously the police brutality was wrong, but..." is a fantastic way of sweeping that under the carpet as though it's a non-issue. You claim the EU tries to "uphold its citizens rights," yet there was no real fallout from Spain sending in the rubber bullets and batons, was there?

Before we start worrying about the external threats, maybe we should be more concerned with the internal threats?

This was a classic example of Spain showing that although it's now 2018, they have no real qualms about reaching back to the 60's and 70's to show us how you deal with a population that dares to get out of line.

If this were Russia or some Middle-Eastern type who had sanctioned these actions there would have been widespread horror and condemnation, and perhaps even a declaration or two of "liberation."

As it was Spain, not so much.

The photos above aren't of the police dealing with rabble-rousers or trouble makers, but with ordinary people who wanted to vote. Nothing more.

On 11/22/2018 at 8:02 PM, Fog Dude said:

It's written into EU law that "where possible any matter should be decentralised" although admittedly they sometimes have trouble putting that into practice.

Yeah, just a little bit. We agree on that point at least.

On 11/23/2018 at 11:01 AM, Carbomb said:

If their answer to blunting non-violent separatist sentiment is by sending in the boot boys, they're pretty much violating their social contract with those very people. I'd even go so far as to say it shows they haven't quite yet got Franco out of their system.

Some of the chatter and insults that I've seen hurled at anyone who dares speak Catalan in mainland Spain certainly has a distinct whiff of Francoist Spain about it, especially during the whole independence vote debacle.

"Fog dude" may claim there's been no oppression since the 70's, but I know more than a fair few Barcelona natives who'd disagree, and even more Spanish natives who'd tell you that the oppression of them is more than warranted, as they're simply "biting the hand that feeds them," and "think they're better than the rest of Spain."

"Secessionist nonsense" is a good one though, that'll get me a few free pints in my current local when the Barcelona vs Madrid game is on. The nationalists will love hearing that!

In closing, as this debate is going nowhere really, I'm just glad that the vote went the way it did. I really expected it to go in favour of remain, although I'd have been saddened if it had.

I'm not really all that confident in the current lot to negotiate any kind of "deal" that will satisfy, but at least it's a move in the right direction.

Interesting times ahead.

Edited November 24, 2018 by David

[Fog Dude]

Nice to know you frequent bars where people are deluded enough to have fallen hook, line and sinker for Barça propaganda. They don't actually want an independent Catalonia. Appealing to people who do is just part of their marketing ploy (but nowadays their shirts are also worn by hangers-on all over the world who haven't got a clue about all that). They were the one outlet for Catalan identity during the era of Francoism precisely because letting off steam at the football every weekend was seen as harmless instead of expressing that identity at work and in the streets. Bread and circuses, see?

When the SNP took power in Scotland there were 8 fire brigades and 8 police forces in Scotland. Now there's one of each. One of the first things they did in office was enforce a council tax freeze (which was obviously popular, but definitely an example of centralisation). I've heard it claimed that the SNP are only centralising temporarily until independence is achieved and that they desperately want to start decentralising again as soon as Scotland is 'free'. Ha, do they bollocks! Separatism has negative connotations for a reason. Brexit is an act of separatism and I don't consider more separatism to be an adequate solution. If you're worried about the centralising of power, you shouldn't necessarily trust separatist parties.

I don't think Spain eradicated oppression overnight when Franco died, and I can't recall claiming that the police had done nothing wrong since the 1970s. Those images are very emotive and they clearly show unacceptable actions, but they're hardly a daily occurrence, are they?

In my opinion the Spanish authorities should've treated the day of the referendum as a normal Sunday instead of sending in reinforcements, since they claim it was illegitimate. It would've been even better if they'd negotiated to hold a legal referendum like David Cameron and Alex Salmond did, but apparently that's against the Spanish Constitution (although that's rather convienient for central government, and open to interpretation) which is a document treated with a bit too much reverence at times for my liking.

Catalonia is part of 'mainland Spain' so I'm not quite sure what you mean there, but a variant of the Catalan language is also spoken in the Balearic Islands. 

I'm not trying to deny your experience of the past 5 years. Mine differs though. I only had 7 months in Galicia in total (and 2 days in Barcelona 14 years ago, plus about a week in each of Andalusia, Madrid and Valencian Country). I spoke to people with a range of opinions while I was there and came to my own conclusions. It's a pity if you're only listening to and reading sources that have one – overwhelmingly negative – viewpoint about European and Spanish unity. The 2 million who feel that independence is the best solution do not speak for the other 5.5 million Catalans. And yes, a few of those 5.5 million will be fascists and other assorted arseholes, but most just want peace and quiet. 

[David]

18 hours ago, Fog Dude said:

Nice to know you frequent bars where people are deluded enough to have fallen hook, line and sinker for Barça propaganda.

I frequent bars where the locals drink, because it's those bars that offer the best prices for beer. Tourist bars and hip joints set up for those on a gap year round the world trip before they start Uni know they're dealing with mugs and can charge accordingly.

Needless to say, the places I drink aren't usually found on Trip Advisor, or in any "round the world" blogs discussing the best places to sample a "taste of Spain" in the area.

I currently live in a block of flats that houses something like 16 families in the outskirts of the city, the majority of those families are Spanish, although we do have one Venezuelan family who like to bust out the guitars, weed, and the cigars on occasion. The father of that household looks as I'd imagine Che would look if he'd reached old age. he's insane, but he makes a cracking chilli.

anyway, some of those people from the apartment block can be found in the local bars, along with other people like them. From my experience there's a guy who runs a fruit shop, another who works for the council as a property inspector, a girl who works in the supermarket, and her husband who's one of the local police.

Just people, really. Deluded? maybe. Not sure how they'd take to being called deluded for their opinions on their own country from someone who's spent a minute here. Maybe that's why they frequent the same bar as me and put up with my drunken shite? Preferable to being told they're "doing being Spanish wrong" at the tourist bars?

As for the football thing, I could be wrong but I don't think their dislike of Catalans has anything to do with Barca. That would be like a Spaniard telling a local Glasgow Rangers fan who dislikes Catholics that he's just fallen for the Rangers marketing ploy. I'm no expert, but it seems that for some people this shit runs deeper than what Gerard Pique says in the media or what Barca put on their shirts. Does it bubble to the surface when the team is playing? Yeah, but it's not the main driving factor I don't think.

18 hours ago, Fog Dude said:

Catalonia is part of 'mainland Spain' so I'm not quite sure what you mean there, but a variant of the Catalan language is also spoken in the Balearic Islands. 

My apologies, you pick up little quirks like that when you've been here as long as I have. I hear people who've spent all of their lives here refer to Catalonia as being different from "mainland Spain," but it could just be them doing it wrong again, or me being drunk and not picking up on their Spanish correctly.

18 hours ago, Fog Dude said:

I'm not trying to deny your experience of the past 5 years. Mine differs though. I only had 7 months in Galicia in total (and 2 days in Barcelona 14 years ago, plus about a week in each of Andalusia, Madrid and Valencian Country). I spoke to people with a range of opinions while I was there and came to my own conclusions. It's a pity if you're only listening to and reading sources that have one – overwhelmingly negative – viewpoint about European and Spanish unity. The 2 million who feel that independence is the best solution do not speak for the other 5.5 million Catalans. And yes, a few of those 5.5 million will be fascists and other assorted arseholes, but most just want peace and quiet. 

Yeah, I'm not actively seeking out differing opinions to be fair, I just talk to the folk that I see on a daily basis, and the friends I've made since dropping into this wacky place in 2013. 

I don't listen to or read any sources really, I just talk to people who talk to me. Over the years you do that. none of this comes from books written by English authors, or from forums or intellectual discussions with the type who "spent a terrific summer in the basque country" or anything like that. 

This is just based on five years of frequenting bars, making friends, attending parties, getting drunk, being graciously invited into people's homes for meals and evenings on the canas and chorizo, going to football, and so forth.

I'm not making any claims about the intelligence of the people I speak to, or how "in tune" with Spain these actual Spanish people are, i'm just telling my experiences.

None of this actually changes my views on the EU, nor will what I say change yours no doubt, but it's been a nice little natter nonetheless.

EDIT: In fact, going through my work invoices this morning has changed my mind. If the EU promised to force Spain to change the ridiculous autónomo system they have in place I'd happily run through the city centre naked, bollocks to the wind with only an EU flag wrapped around me.

Edited November 25, 2018 by David

[Fog Dude]

Sounds like a great time out there. Segueix divertint-te molt! Going to the cheapest, less tourist-y bars seems like the best way to go about things. I didn't actively seek out different opinions either. I was just drifting to whichever bar or flat or event I was invited to as well. I just so happened to hang around with people holding a whole range of views (and ages and genders and ethnicities, although the sample skewed towards white male twentysomethings), and in those days we were still able to be civil to each other at all times. In Belgium my best mates were even a Catalan with sovereigntist sympathies and a bloke called Eirian from Ebbw Vale. My ex was a Plaid Cymru voter. One of my friends in Santiago was a Glaswegian backer of the SNP who's since met Nicola Sturgeon. I watch a programme on TV3 every week.

In Madrid I was staying at a Red Cross refugee mission and met Latin Americans and a Palestinian fleeing poverty and persecution. I can get on with separatists and definitely don't want to see them beaten up or put in a straitjacket. I just find the notion that to be a pipe dream and a fantasy. The obstacles to a fairer society aren't the existence of larger countries as long as, like you say, they aren't too centralised and they don't deny local identity. The Catalan language is no longer suppressed and that is quite correct.

I'm glad you mentioned the Old Firm, because the parallels are clear for all to see. Some people think one side is saintly and the other side is evil. I am of the opinion that Rangers and Celtic, and Real Madrid and FCB, are just as bad as each other. Both sides play up the rivalry for all it's worth just to make money and then act shocked when tempers flare. In Barcelona I guess you'd expect to find a fair few people who are convinced that Barça are angels, though.

No worries about the 'mainland' thing. In a lot of people's minds perhaps Catalonia feels like an island, which might be one of the problems in contemporary Spain. I'm not saying everyone I spoke to was a genius, or always calm or wise either. I'm also not relying on English-language travelogue books or pseudo-academic tourism blogs. I reckon we have equal disdain for that kind of thing.

I would prefer a federal Spain instead of the autonomías which is the official position of the Catalan Socialist Party. Unfortunately most of the people opposing the estado autonómico are the neo-Falangists that want to return to a unitary (and not very democratic) state. You can oppose independence without having jackboots and a swastika in the cupboard, ready to goose-step down the street. Heck, in the 2014 consulta I'd probably have voted Yes/No (the Greens asked for there to be 2 questions) and in the 2017 referendum I might've have even braved the police to vote No, like a lot of Podemos supporters did.

There are massive shades of views between pluralism and a one-party state, and between outright independence and central government rule. Sadly the only party there that identified itself as catalanista but not independentista was a small, corrupt, socially conservative one that disappeared a couple of years ago after getting 2% of the vote in a regional election. People are being driven to the extremes and the biggest anti-secession groups don't appear to be very progressive, which is unfortunate.

At the end of May, Catalans will again go to the polls in European and municipal elections. I trust there will be no suppression or brutality. Were it not for Brexit, you'd have been able to take part in those election as well. Just sayin'... 

[Keith Houchen]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46446694

Won't post the body of text but May suffers three Brexit defeats in the Commons including the government being found in contempt of Parliament.  Fucking hell!

[Loki]

She lost more votes today than Gordon Brown in his entire run as PM.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]