Brexit

[Keith Houchen]

Yeah, I always laugh when Australians talk about immigration and "Boat People" without a solitary bit of irony.

[David]

With all of that being said, I do agree with much of his sentiment, as someone who isn't a fan of the EU. I don't see why Britain, as well as the other nations of Europe can't form a loose agreement that facilitates trade without having more fucking clowns in charge of making rules than we already have. 

There's already chat of an EU army. If that doesn't set alarm bells off in the head of anyone with a braincell then I don't know what will. The EU is simply the centralisation of power, further removing those who are responsible for making the rules from being answerable to the people than they already are.

The notion of placing more power into the hands of fewer people is absolutely fucking bonkers. We should be decentralising power as much as possible, making those responsible more answerable to those who elect them, not the other way around.

[BomberPat]

14 hours ago, David said:

There's already chat of an EU army. If that doesn't set alarm bells off in the head of anyone with a braincell then I don't know what will.

And, as I've said before, leaving the EU is just putting your fingers in your ears to shut out the sound of the alarm bells rather than remaining in a position to do something about the cause of the problem. 

 

Tony Abbott's a colossal prick, and his argument falls down on one key point - the smug, entitled sense that the EU is "punishing" Britain for leaving. Plenty of people have used the analogy of cancelling a Sky subscription before, but here goes - when you cancel your Sky subscription, they're not "punishing" you by not letting you watch Sky Sports 3 any more, that's the exact thing you asked them to do. 

[David]

33 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

And, as I've said before, leaving the EU is just putting your fingers in your ears to shut out the sound of the alarm bells rather than remaining in a position to do something about the cause of the problem. 

The problem there is that for the most part our politicians are complicit in the way things are going, so they have absolutely zero intentions of doing anything about it. Do you think if we'd voted to remain that the current UK Government would be bothering itself with decentralising of power and trying to fight off a central EU army?

The only way the EU, in its current form, is stopped is by people not playing along. I sincerely hope that when we finally leave it will trigger a similar response from other people around Europe, and eventually we see this current EU model scrapped. It's not fit for purpose.

33 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Tony Abbott's a colossal prick, and his argument falls down on one key point - the smug, entitled sense that the EU is "punishing" Britain for leaving. Plenty of people have used the analogy of cancelling a Sky subscription before, but here goes - when you cancel your Sky subscription, they're not "punishing" you by not letting you watch Sky Sports 3 any more, that's the exact thing you asked them to do.

Tony Abbott is a prick, but even a prick can be right on occasion, and he's hitting the mark in a few things that he says in my opinion. There's this overriding belief that the UK can't survive outside of the EU, and in many ways I see the general sentiment of the people of the UK as being similar to that of the Scots when they had their independence vote.

The truth is, we don't need the EU, and all of its backroom dealing, bureaucratic bullshit.

Here's a question. Do you believe that those charged with running our lives on a daily basis should be held accountable by the people who vote for them? If the answer is yes, then why would you support remaining a part of an organisation such as the EU?

Take the nonsense about Farage, Boris, buses and all that pantomime shit out of the equation and look at things logically. The people of Europe should be deciding things, not a group of bureaucrats unelected by the very people they rule over. We have ridiculous elections that virtually no one gives a shit about to elect MEP's who's scope of power amounts to that of the House of Lords.

Never in my life have I seen a ballot paper that asked me to participate in the decision making process when it comes to electing anyone, or any party, that holds actual power in the EU.

I'm a firm believer in the decentralisation of power, of the right of the people to hold their Governments accountable, and in democracy.

The EU is the polar opposite of everything I believe in, and speaking as a UK citizen who travels and lives overseas for vast chunks of the year I'm more than happy to accept any inconvenience leaving the EU may cause me, be it issues with visas, travel restrictions, whatever. I should be the perfect example of someone who would be vehemently pro-EU because it certainly makes my life a whole lot easier, but I'm not.

There comes a point where you have to look bigger picture, and the wishful notion that we can somehow change the EU by staying in is fanciful at best. Virtually never in the history of the world has such an approach worked.

Edited November 22, 2018 by David

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

5 minutes ago, David said:

The truth is, we don't need the EU, and all of its backroom dealing, bureaucratic bullshit.

Just quoting you on that bit there David so we can see if you are right or not in the future. 

[westlondonmist]

We may not need it in theory, but to be honest after so long in it I don't trust anybody currently in power or in the opposition to turn our country into something that doesn't need it. 

[BomberPat]

1 minute ago, David said:

There comes a point where you have to look bigger picture, and the wishful notion that we can someone change the EU by staying in is fanciful at best. 

Is it any more fanciful than thinking that the departure of the country that has already got more concessions out of the EU than any other member state, and has arguably been the most hostile member to the concept since day one, would lead to every other member state thinking, "yeah, I want some of that?".

When the majority of EU citizens across Europe are in favour of the EU - and become more favourable since Brexit - is it not fanciful to think the people of Germany or Belgium would look to the political chaos in the UK, the risk of severe financial instability, and thinking, "we need to get in on that"?

"I don't vote in European elections" =/= "the EU is undemocratic". The EU has democratic legitimacy as much as any parliament does. 

Is it flawed? Of course it is. Is the solution to walk away and risk losing all the benefits we gain, and historically have gained, from EU membership, leaving the process, and our immediate future, in the hands of an inept, squabbling, increasingly right wing Tory Party? Of course not.

[Dead Mike]

9 minutes ago, David said:

Tony Abbott is a prick, but even a prick can be right on occasion, and he's hitting the mark in a few things that he says in my opinion. There's this overriding belief that the UK can't survive outside of the EU, and in many ways I see the general sentiment of the people of the UK as being similar to that of the Scots when they had their independence vote.

I think most Brits want & expect more than basic 'survival' tbh. Not a single Brexiter has been able to provide a viable exit strategy that doesn't cripple our economy. People who have campaigned their entire careers to leave the EU & when faced with the reality of doing so have either quit or ignored the reality of the situation & instead keep 'campaigning' based on hypothetical situations & vaguely patriotic sound-bites. The idea that you can simply undo vital pan-European supply chains developed over decades in a couple of years without avoidably hurting people is a fallacy & this is where the Brexiters have come unstuck. It's also the reason why Tony Abbott is speaking pure shite & his detail-free nonsense should be given the same level of disdain as the tripe spouted by Boris Johnson, Nadine Dorries & Kate Hoey.

[Gus Mears]

24 minutes ago, David said:

The problem there is that for the most part our politicians are complicit in the way things are going, so they have absolutely zero intentions of doing anything about it. Do you think if we'd voted to remain that the current UK Government would be bothering itself with decentralising of power and trying to fight off a central EU army?

Yes, of course the government would have. David Cameron, who was not a massive Europhile but understood the benefits of the EU as an organisation, would not have been in favour of that either from a conviction basis and because it would gave been politically moronic given the anti-EU votes needed for the Conservatives to win elections. Also, we would have just vetoed it immediately, which is not exactly difficult. Incidentally, a veto we now won't have, which is part of the point BomberPat was making.  

I'd go so far to say that pretty much any UK government,  whether Conservative or Labour, would veto an EU army because it would be overwhelmingly unpopular domestically and not worth the political capital. It would go down about as well as the idea of joining the Euro did at a national level. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Gus Mears

[David]

Well, once we leave the EU it'll be up to the people of Britain who have voting rights to then vote for a Government that is capable of leading the country. If you don't like the 'Tory lot, then vote for someone else.

That's the beauty of democracy.

 

 

[Gus Mears]

How about replying to any of the numerous substantive points against your earlier post? 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Gus Mears

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, David said:

The problem there is that for the most part our politicians are complicit in the way things are going, so they have absolutely zero intentions of doing anything about it. Do you think if we'd voted to remain that the current UK Government would be bothering itself with decentralising of power and trying to fight off a central EU army?

So your concern is that the UK Government doesn't share your values. Best to give more consolidated control over your life to the UK Government then.

[David]

2 minutes ago, Gus Mears said:

How about replying to any of the numerous substantive points against your earlier post? 

Because, as I've stated already, none of that really matters to me. I want a more decentralised system where the people who are charged with making the decisions that affect a country are the very people who have been elected to do so.

It's really as simple as that.

[Chest Rockwell]

11 minutes ago, David said:

If you don't like the 'Tory lot, then vote for someone else.

That's the beauty of democracy.

 

I thought if I didn't bother voting I could just complain that democracy doesn't work and we should throw it out of the window, like you do with your MEP vote?

Coincidentally enough I was reading this old thread earlier. The similarity between David's lack of ability to back up anything he says and Dynamite Duane's pathetic grasp of facts is quite telling, although not surprising:

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Chest Rockwell

[David]

1 minute ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I thought if I didn't bother voting I could just complain that democracy doesn't work and we should throw it out of the window, like you do with your MEP vote?

You could do so if you wished, that's your right. I've stated my opinions on the EU, but if as a nation we'd voted to remain then I'd have had to accept that as the democratic choice of the people, in the same way as I had to accept Scotland turning down the chance to govern itself entirely as well.

It doesn't mean I would have to like it though, does it? Just the same as the majority voting to leave the EU isn't a decision you have to like. Feel free to complain away, there's many who've been doing just that.