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1 minute ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

What even qualifies you as being working class now? 

Honest question.

Buying brown sauce.

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3 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

What even qualifies you as being working class now? 

Honest question.

Living near a chippy that does kebabs.

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5 minutes ago, Otto Dem Wanz said:

What even qualifies you as being working class now? 

Honest question.

It used to be supporting West Ham or Liverpool, but even those days are gone.

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31 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

If they argue like you do, Dave, I'm not surprised that's your experience of how arguments end.

This may surprise you, but I actually don't argue with people "in real life." I usually spend my time getting drunk, travelling and enjoying life with family and friends instead. Correcting old people who think the country has gone down the shitter so I can feel intellectually superior ain't all that high on my list.

Edited by David

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Just now, PowerButchi said:

Just look at the voter turnouts. General election turnouts have been low for quite some time now. Surely that must be down somewhat to feelings of ennui. The referendum turnout was higher than any GE since 1997. Why? Is it the binary question meaning there's more chance of your vote actually mattering? You gothe pubs around my end, a lot of people dont vote as "They're all the same. Innit". Every Tory is a wanker, every Labour politician has been a wanker since Blair. That's the feedback you get there. Several people I know voted out to put mud in the eye of every politician wwho they feel hasn't listened to them since, well, since the mines tbh. That's surely quite clear. It's they whole "They're both two cheeks of the same arse" argument.

 

Or perhaps feelings that everything is pretty much OK, and the boat shouldn't be rocked? My personal theory is many people don't vote because they're generally happy with life and they don't have a hill to die on anymore. It's not like the almost pro-wrestling like 80s when you had clear heels and babyfaces. Young people are engaged, they care about shit, but it's the old stonkers in the pub who you mention that are a bit of an issue when it comes to voting. And if people are saying "they're all the fucking same" well, you can blame Blair for that. He just continued what Thatcher did, it was the only way a Labour government would ever get into power. So what do people who see mass immigration taking "their" jobs do? They vote UKIP, cos there's no credible left-wing alternative. 

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6 minutes ago, PowerButchi said:

Just look at the voter turnouts. General election turnouts have been low for quite some time now. Surely that must be down somewhat to feelings of ennui. The referendum turnout was higher than any GE since 1997. Why? Is it the binary question meaning there's more chance of your vote actually mattering? You gothe pubs around my end, a lot of people dont vote as "They're all the same. Innit". Every Tory is a wanker, every Labour politician has been a wanker since Blair. That's the feedback you get there. Several people I know voted out to put mud in the eye of every politician wwho they feel hasn't listened to them since, well, since the mines tbh. That's surely quite clear. It's they whole "They're both two cheeks of the same arse" argument.

If there was a GE tomorrow I honestly don't know who is vote for. It's all a mess and there's no party that represents my views particularly. But that doesn't mean protest votes aren't stupid.

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3 minutes ago, David said:

This may surprise you, but I actually don't argue with people "in real life." I usually spend my time getting drunk, travelling and enjoying life with family and friends instead. Correcting old people who thinks the country has gone down the shitter so I can feel intellectually superior ain't all that high on my list.

And there you go again. 

This may surprise you, but I actually don't argue with people like that "in real life". 

I argue with people in good faith, not mocking them, and I don't do it to "feel intellectually superior", I do it because I want to see a better world, and I believe a very small step to contributing to that is to try and persuade people of my position, and hope that they join me in that position when I debate with them.

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They're inherently good people, so I'm not going to judge them based on their decision to protest vote,.

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13 minutes ago, David said:

I honestly believe that if there was another vote it would go the same way, perhaps even moreso. The natural reaction when someone is told that they're wrong and it's at least hinted at that they were duped, and were stupid to believe what they did is to clam up and double down, as you say.

For example;

I'm sure that anyone who voted to leave is going to read and hear things similar to this and think "Gosh, this guy who's essentially calling me a fucking moron is right! I'm gonna change my ways! Thanks, man!"

So, what's the alternative, David? 

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2 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said:

So, what's the alternative, David? 

800px-Karl_Marx_001.jpg

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There's absolutely nothing wrong with a protest vote. The issue comes when the anger is misplaced & the consequences of said vote result in things being even worse for the people already suffering.

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Just now, Carbomb said:

And there you go again. 

This may surprise you, but I actually don't argue with people like that "in real life". 

I argue with people in good faith, not mocking them, and I don't do it to "feel intellectually superior", I do it because I want to see a better world, and I believe a very small step to contributing to that is to try and persuade people of my position, and hope that they join me in that position when I debate with them.

But why argue at all? Like I said, it usually accomplishes fuck all. There's a reason the old saying "don't discuss religion or politics around the dinner table" is so popular. It's because it usually degenerates into an argument, which does no one any favours at all.

Case in point, my reply to Boydy. No arguing, no ripping his logic to shreds, I simply addressed his points and put forth an opinion. if he replies later that he still isn't buying it, then that's that. I'm not going to say that he's flat out wrong (even though I believe he is) because me saying that isn't going to make him suddenly see the fucking light. That situation is exactly how I'd react "in real life."

Honestly mate, there's a reason why your idea of "a better world" never seems to come to fruition, and it's not because your ideas are terrible, it's because the people you're trying to convince don't like being preached to. The majority of people simply shut down if they feel that they're being questioned or if they think someone is trying to make them feel or look silly. It's just how it is.

If we're talking the political spectrum the truth is that the biggest boon to right-wing success is left-wing activists. What the so-called left are doing clearly isn't fucking working, and hasn't worked for decades now. If anything it actually works against them.

But hey, you keep on keeping on. If there's any silver lining it's that most people who enjoy arguing with other people tend to group together, leaving those who just want to enjoy life and get drunk to do so without worrying that a night out or a dinner is going to descend into a discussion over the media coverage that Natalie Wood gets.

14 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said:

So, what's the alternative, David?

Not being a confrontational prick?

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13 minutes ago, David said:

But why argue at all? Like I said, it usually accomplishes fuck all. There's a reason the old saying "don't discuss religion or politics around the dinner table" is so popular. It's because it usually degenerates into an argument, which does no one any favours at all.

Case in point, my reply to Boydy. No arguing, no ripping his logic to shreds, I simply addressed his points and put forth an opinion. if he replies later that he still isn't buying it, then that's that. I'm not going to say that he's flat out wrong (even though I believe he is) because me saying that isn't going to make him suddenly see the fucking light. That situation is exactly how I'd react "in real life."

Honestly mate, there's a reason why your idea of "a better world" never seems to come to fruition, and it's not because your ideas are terrible, it's because the people you're trying to convince don't like being preached to. The majority of people simply shut down if they feel that they're being questioned or if they think someone is trying to make them feel or look silly. It's just how it is.

If we're talking the political spectrum the truth is that the biggest boon to right-wing success is left-wing activists. What the so-called left are doing clearly isn't fucking working, and hasn't worked for decades now. If anything it actually works against them.

But hey, you keep on keeping on. If there's any silver lining it's that most people who enjoy arguing with other people tend to group together, leaving those who just want to enjoy life and get drunk to do so without worrying that a night out or a dinner is going to descend into a discussion over the media coverage that Natalie Wood gets.

Not being a confrontational prick?

Oh, the irony. Now, cards on the table I'm a Conservative. However, what's happened now is a fucking mess and I'm embarrassed by what the likes of Boris Johnson have done. I'm glad I don't live in the UK anymore because I'm just embarrassed by the whole thing. If you just want to chuck out insults, then fine, but I haven't don't that to you. I'm interested in what you have to say. 

Edited by Brewster McCloud

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