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wandshogun09

UFC Adelaide: Dos Santos vs Tuivasa - Dec 1

Who wins and how?   

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On 12/2/2018 at 3:12 PM, wandshogun09 said:

He’s got potential but I do feel like they rushed him a bit.

With regards to Tuivasa I think he's incredibly limited. He's got a hard head, and he can hit hard, but his technique is pants and he's very one dimensional. I don't see him going much further than a fun guy to watch who grabs the odd headliner on an Australian show.

On 12/2/2018 at 3:12 PM, wandshogun09 said:

Shogun winning was nice. I don’t know if it’s good or bad though because a win just convinces him he’s got another run in him.

Do you think he honestly believes he's got another run in him? I think at this stage he's just taking it one fight at a time and seeing what happens. I still think it would have been interesting to see how he'd have gotten on at Middleweight. Not sure if he could have made that cut, but he always seems undersized and a bit fleshy at 205.

On 12/4/2018 at 3:15 PM, ColinBollocks said:

Paul Craig is proper getting exposed now. The hope was he'd build back some of his momentum after his last win, but in the end it was another convincing trouncing against a dude without a wiki page (the horror, the horror).

Yeah, he's hit a ceiling by the looks of it. I'm not sure if it's a case of him not taking his opportunity seriously enough. He's still training in Coatbridge and the north of England, when you'd imagine that he'd be looking to expand his skillset and seek out some camps in the US maybe?

He seems like a guy who kind of fell into this opportunity rather than someone who's chased it for years, and he does seem to have a lot of other things going on outside fighting.

 

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Shogun seems to think he’s got another run in him, yeah. He even said in his post-fight interview that ‘one more fighty...and I go for the belt’ or words to that effect. He thinks it’s 2009. Doesn’t help when Cormier was calling for him to get a title shot recently (we know why but Shogun probably saw that as validation that he’s still elite) and when the likes of Hardy and Gooden were going on before the Smith fight like he was on some impressive streak because he’d stopped Villante and squeaked by Corey Anderson and a 84 year old Little Nog. 

Middleweight Shogun would’ve been good to see and he did actually flirt with the idea around 2013/14ish but it’s obviously too late now. He was lucky really that he won the title when he did because it was just after that that 205 became a bigger man’s weight class. In Shogun’s era guys like Forrest Griffin and Tito Ortiz were thought of as huge light heavyweights. When Shogun won the belt in 2010 the division was on the verge of a change where you started seeing small heavyweights like Jones and Gustafsson emerge as 205ers. Now you’re seeing guys like Dominick Reyes and Aleksandar Rakic who are 6’4”/6’5” coming up at 205. It’s a different division now. And Middleweights today like Romero, Weidman and Rockhold are every bit as big as the top 205ers back in the day like Chuck, Tito and Randy. 

Edited by wandshogun09

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Yeah, but I tend to take what a fighter says post-fight and in public with a grain of salt. I'm sure he thinks he's still competitive with a lot of the guys in the division, but there's no way he's thinking that he's got a run at the top in him. Not a fucking chance.

Edited by David

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It wasn’t just post-fight though, he’s said it in interviews a few times. And if we don’t base it on what a fighter says in public, what do we base it on? We only see what they say in public. I don’t think Shogun’s telling you stuff in private so who are we to really know? Neither of us are mind readers. Maybe you’re right and in his head he knows he’s fucked and just hanging on. But he wouldn’t be the first fighter to be delusional enough to believe he’s still at the top of his game, years past his best. And it’s not like he’s a known hype man or bullshit artist like a Chael Sonnen or something. Shogun’s never been a salesman. If he’s talking about titles I tend to think it’s because he believes he’s still got it in him to win them. So yeah, to say there’s “not a fucking chance” a fighter thinks he can still win a title even though he’s past it, I think that’s shite myself. Fighters always think they can turn back the clock. You can go right back through history of MMA and Boxing and you’ll see it. They hang on for money and glory (be it titles or the fame or fan adulation). I don’t know why it would be such a shock that someone like Shogun would be immune to that when so many other fighters, stretching back decades, weren’t. 

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6 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

It wasn’t just post-fight though, he’s said it in interviews a few times. And if we don’t base it on what a fighter says in public, what do we base it on? We only see what they say in public. I don’t think Shogun’s telling you stuff in private so who are we to really know? Neither of us are mind readers. Maybe you’re right and in his head he knows he’s fucked and just hanging on. But he wouldn’t be the first fighter to be delusional enough to believe he’s still at the top of his game, years past his best. And it’s not like he’s a known hype man or bullshit artist like a Chael Sonnen or something. Shogun’s never been a salesman. If he’s talking about titles I tend to think it’s because he believes he’s still got it in him to win them. So yeah, to say there’s “not a fucking chance” a fighter thinks he can still win a title even though he’s past it, I think that’s shite myself. Fighters always think they can turn back the clock. You can go right back through history of MMA and Boxing and you’ll see it. They hang on for money and glory (be it titles or the fame or fan adulation). I don’t know why it would be such a shock that someone like Shogun would be immune to that when so many other fighters, stretching back decades, weren’t. 

He's got eyes like the rest of us, and so have his coaches. He's not "fucked" but he knows, deep down, that he's not going after a belt any time soon. He'll continue along making a few quid, co-maining here and there, but he's not an idiot, he'll know he's past his prime.

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You’d hope so. And I’m not saying he’s an idiot. It’s not a question of being clever or dumb. But a fighter like Shogun, he’s been doing this from a fairly young age. He’s been fighting pretty much his whole adult life. People might say ‘well he can just get a regular job’ and that’s true. But even now, a solid decade past his best, he’s making decent money. He just got a $50,000 bonus and a $15,000 Reebok payout on top of his standard fight purse (not sure how much this was. For his previous fight with Anthony Smith he reportedly got $195,000 to show, so he must’ve got more than that here with a win) for this fight against Tyson Pedro. And he’s fought twice this year. Basically, he’ll probably have earned around $500,000 in 2018. Less after tax and paying his coaches, obviously, but still not too bad at all. I can understand why it would be hard to walk away from that and start at the bottom in another line of work. I’m sure there are other things he could do within MMA but it’s not like he’s a great talker or personality like a Michael Bisping or Daniel Cormier or Rashad Evans where there’s an obvious route to take in analyst and commentary work. 

But back to my point, yeah, I honestly think some of these guys are driven/crackers enough to believe they can still go like they did in their primes. Their coaches will know otherwise of course, but they probably either feel like A) they can’t tell the fighter not to fight, B) they don’t want them to keep fighting but they’d rather be there to guide them as best they can if they insist on fighting or C) they don’t care as long as their cheque clears. I think the vast majority fall into the A or B categories. There’s probably a few who fall into C sadly. In many cases the fighter is probably the last to know and accept it.

Not even necessarily saying you’re wrong. But it wouldn’t shock me one bit if Shogun actually believes he can still get back to the title and beat Daniel Cormier or Jon Jones. It’s mad to us but these guys aren’t wired like you or me. 

Edited by wandshogun09

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I think it's more a case of them trying to square it with themselves that they're still able to make a run, even though they know deep down it's not going to happen. They probably think that way because it's easier than contemplating the fact that they've reached the age to call it a day. What do you do then? You're no longer the young athlete you once were, and you won't be as big a deal with other people after a few years either.

And while he's maybe making decent dough, and while $500,000 may sound like a lot to you and me, these guys adjust their lifestyles to suit. They're living in big houses, with expensive cars and lifestyles. That $500,000 isn't going to last long really, unless he's been smart for the past 15 years or so with investments and suchlike, and many athletes aren't.

Anyway, my point is that while he says he's looking for the belt and all that jazz, do you think if Gusty fell out the fight this month and somehow Shogun was fit to replace him that he'd really think he can beat Jones? He'll give it his best shot, of course, but he'll know that he really has no place being there now.

There's confidence and then there's stupidity. 

On a positive note, what he has proven is that he's still capable at the top 10-15 range or so, which means there's still fights for him and money to be made.

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Yeah, I think I said earlier in the thread that it’s quite remarkable really that he’s been able to win 3 of his last 4 despite how limited he is these days and the shit his body has endured physically. It’s a level of toughness and persistence that I can’t fully comprehend. I admire it but it’s still concerning at the same time. I couldn’t be happier to see him winning but I just don’t want to see him end up at the Rashad Evans/BJ Penn level where it’s just sad. He’s not there yet, obviously. He’s still capable of winning fights against decent opposition. But it just feels like he’s always just heading for his next beating. He’ll win a couple of fights then get fed to a killer. I don’t want to see that happen too many more times. 

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i continue to be stupidly behind.

...but i didnt think Shogun looked too bad really. He's still tough and unafraid to pull the trigger. He fought a real smart round 2 as well and took zero damage. As someone as alluded too the problem will be going forward that Shogun wont have the beating of the guys in the top 10 but will be fodder the up and comers wanting to break into the top 15. What a warrior though.

Mark Hunts fight was sadder. Hunt's never been much of a mover but to see him plod around getting picked off with jabs and barely land a punch was depressing. Quite like Justin Willis though, coming in with a brash boxing-esque entourage and talking shit. Hes gonna be fun to watch.

Tai Tuivasa was winning but got caught. I thought he was on his was to stopping JDS too. No idea if Tai could have kept that kind of attack up for 5 rounds but he was doing alright. Think JDS was weathering the storm a bit but he was treading a tight rope of getting put out. JDS is one of those heavyweights that just refuses to go away.

Tai Tuivasa/Justin Willis next is a must surely? get that on the Oz card in Feb.

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Tuivasa was winning because he caught JDS on the leg. Before that he was just swinging wildly and missing most of the time. The leg issue made the fight slightly more intriguing, but if that hadn't happened I was fairly certain JDS superior boxing would win the day eventually.

Tuivasa hits hard and has a hard head. He's like a tattooed young version of Chuck Rock from the old SNES game. 

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1 hour ago, David said:

Tuivasa hits hard and has a hard head. 

He's perfect for a classic WWE "islander" gimmick, where people headbutt him and end up coming off worse.

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19 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

He's perfect for a classic WWE "islander" gimmick, where people headbutt him and end up coming off worse.

They could bring him in as Samoa Joe's cousin, they do look quite similar I think. Both of them look like mean bastards.

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1 minute ago, David said:

They could bring him in as Samoa Joe's cousin, they do look quite similar I think. Both of them look like mean bastards.

They actually do! I know one's Maori and the other's Samoan, but they really do look like they could be related.

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