bigfoote Posted September 27, 2018 Share Posted September 27, 2018 I genuinely believe it needs a big change in mindset in the office to reboot Raw. First example that came to mind was the NXT episode with just one match. Now I'm not suggesting an uber-Ironman match. But mix it up. Have a 2 of 3 falls match go 30/40 mins in the middle of the show, have it bump off a match "now rescheduled for [insert network special] in 3 weeks, ONLY ON THE WWE NETWORK" It's just too formulaic at the moment to provide any real spark, and I fear until McMahon leaves this earthly realm and they wash the old man stink out...we won't see a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Arch Stanton Posted September 27, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted September 27, 2018 Lots of good ideas in this thread so far, it's actually quite depressing when you realise that there are so many things- some for no additional cost at all, that they could be doing, yet nothing ever changes. Since I already agree with a lot of the ideas put forward here, I won't bother repeating those, but here are some other things I'd like to see: I remember when wrestlers used to get new theme tunes, or at least new versions, like every other year. It feels like that happens a lot less now, which is a shame. It's an easy way to freshen up the presentation of a character and helps to time-stamp different periods of a wrestler's career. The shows need more veteran faces on screen, not in the ring, but as interviewers, presenters, announcers and even referees. All other sports are presented with a strong presence of veteran figures- because their experience adds legitimacy to their words and they carry a sense of authority. The wrestling business has enough charismatic former stars that could still entertain in roles on TV, a number of them are on the road with the show already as agents, hidden away off-screen. It needn't just be ex-wrestlers though, I'd love to see some older interviewers, a new Mean Gene rather than yet another young girl ending interviews with a bewildered expression. Humanise, name and characterise the referees again. They play an important role in the storytelling of a match, why limit their usefulness in that respect? For the most part, book babyfaces to be smarter than the heels. And with that said... Fuck off with distraction roll-ups finishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Accident Prone Posted September 28, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2018 Cracking thread this, I'm finding myself agreeing with 99% of it. Presentation needs a massive over haul. I was listening to the British Wrestling Spotlight on the way to work (cheeky plug for @Benno!) and the talk somehow got onto how old wrestling used to look. One of the lads said they first watched the HBK/Taker HIAC match during the 2000 hot period, and he mentioned how massive the difference was between the look of 1997 and what was on currently. The mats, the vibe, the crew, the look. He couldn't believe it was only 3 years difference between the two products. You look at the presentation of 2018 RAW and rewind to 2015. It's almost the exact same, pixel for fucking pixel. It's been that way for a while now and it's created this massive wave of stagnation. There's no feeling of the product evolving or pushing itself forward, it's just been minor adjustments since 2008. A few posts ago someone mentioned how WWE make the set and arenas look exactly the same no matter where they are and I almost gave myself whiplash with the amount of enthusiastic head nodding I suddenly bust into. For a globe trotting product, you want every show to feel different and to make use of a venue's unique assets. The current agenda of making every show feel uniform really kills it for me. The same look, the same show layout, you even know when the commercials are going to roll in. They've made the show layout predictable and the storylines unpredictable, which is a total 180 of what TV wrestling should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Mustang Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Yes! Yes! Yes! can someone please print this out and stick it under Vince’s door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVM Posted September 28, 2018 Share Posted September 28, 2018 Present it more like a combat sport. Do more analysis, sit down interviews, keep PPV main eventers apart, use more in ring time to build up undercarders, mid carders and even NXT wrestlers. More vignettes, wrestler profiles. Make social media a more immersive experience, do press conferences, weigh ins etc. Make PPV production more extravagant than TV. Yes, it's a slower burn, but I think part of the issue is the pace is so quick that stories can't be told and nothing really means anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted September 28, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2018 1 hour ago, AVM said: weigh ins etc Hmm. Pressers I think on occasion are superb, they did them fairly often in the 90s for big ones, but I'm not sure about weigh ins. I've barely given a fuck for 20 years when Fink/Lilian/Jojo tell me what most wrestlers weigh, I really can't be fucked to watch them get on the scales too. Too much "real sport" stuff makes me feel itchy about mandatory handshakes and The Code Of Honor coming back. Having said that, I miss gimmick weights being unrealistically constant and memorable. Hogan not being 303 or Taker no longer announced at THREE HUNDRED, TWENTY EIGHT POUNDS just feels wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jazzy G Posted September 29, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted September 29, 2018 Squash matches with local job guys. Makes wins and losses matter, maybe have some of the "main guys" in a tag or a match against a friend's rival in the main event and at the top of the hour so there's some star power to be seen in a bigger match, but if two people are feuding and wrestling on ppv try to keep them from having singles matches against each other on the show, whether that's by rotating the guys who are week to week, bunging them in special tag matches or showing one of them leaving before the other arrives. No scripting promos. Give the wrestlers bullet points and send them out there. They'll be able to get more of their own personalities into the promos then. If you're worried somebody isn't a good promo, but is a stellar guy in the ring give them a manager or agent to talk for them, this person could read a "prepared statement" in said wrestler's absence while they're busy preparing for the match or join the commentary team to do a little trash talking. Make it feel like a sport again. Call moves by name have the colour guy explain why the wrestlers are doing what they do. Analysts and pundits before/after the big matches. Have some of the local indy/job guys wrestle each other on the undercard, or some guys from NXT. Make it a thing where they randomly draw or have a little tournament in there to determine who gets to represent NXT/205 Live on Raw that week so it looks like a big thing, but then on commentary rather than going on about who's going to be in the main event tonight or whatever the storyline of the week is explain that you can see more action like this every week on the network. If you've been watching a couple of 5 minute squashes and suddenly you're watching a 20 minute back and forth it's going to get your attention more, plus you can then have some "I'm waiting for my call up but you got to wrestle on Raw" feuding happening on NXT. Stick a classic match on for the fans at home while the people in the arena have an interval? Stick the match on the tron as well if people want to watch in the arena. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 14 hours ago, AVM said: Present it more like a combat sport. Do more analysis, sit down interviews, keep PPV main eventers apart, use more in ring time to build up undercarders, mid carders and even NXT wrestlers. More vignettes, wrestler profiles. Make social media a more immersive experience, do press conferences, weigh ins etc. Make PPV production more extravagant than TV. Yes, it's a slower burn, but I think part of the issue is the pace is so quick that stories can't be told and nothing really means anything. I agree with almost everyone in this thread, but this is very succinct, and it's what NXT has been moving towards so successfully. Everyone knows that pro wrestling is a soap opera, driven by characters and storylines. But its uniqueness is that it's not just actors playing parts, it's meant to be an actual sport that is coincidentally full of high drama. Nobody really thinks WWE could put out UWFi and keep their viewers, it's not about that. But look at what 'legit' sports like MMA take from pro wrestling, and what they don't. They take the pageantry and heel/face dynamics and wrap it around actual fights. The WWE can do this, but with pre-determined outcomes they can control the stories better. The WWE has spent a decade trying to present wrestling as a show about people-making-a-wrestling-show. It's a "reality tv" format where cameras are always present for awfully scripted personal interactions. Drama happens and the wrestlers determine to settle it in the ring themselves. The wrestling is incidental and wins and losses don't drive what happens next week. It's fucking awful and doesn't make any sense. RAW explicitly presents the product as fake. Where NXT scores so highly is that they understand it's meant to be a controlled, sports show but drama happens to occur. They have tournaments, rankings, matches that are booked because of the sporting aspect. And then people catch stuff happening on mobile phones, or in the background of legit interviews, and Regal has to make matches based on grudges, and does so in official announcements to an interviewer. It's not rocket science, but it's a fundamental change in philosophy. WWE wants to be in the business of fictional drama tv. But their product is predetermined athletic competition. It's not a good fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Why would Vince go to the trouble of making any of these changes, though? The WWE has a core audience who watch week in week out and generate a cackload of money, no matter how bland, risk averse or inconsequential the flagship TV shows are. As for the house shows, it's all about the brand now - much like the circus, people will go to see it when it's in town, regardless of which particular clowns or lion tamers happen to be in whatever position on the card. "I'm not going back to see those motherfuckers again until that trapeze artist who works so hard finally gets top billing over that lousy clown who just does the same old routine that everyone laughs at!" complained no circus goer ever, and WWE house show audiences are no different in 2018. Vince has finally realised his mad vision and he doesn't have to give a hoot about creating "stars" anymore; what a lot of people seem to overlook is that this is what he wants. He no longer has to worry about being made to look small time when his headliners get too big for their boots and elope with Hollywood, or the rest of his superstar independent contractors attempt to play hardball. It's a non-issue, as are the complaints of people on boards like this when his wallet has never been fatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted September 29, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted September 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said: Why would Vince go to the trouble of making any of these changes, though? Wasn't the question posed. Why WOULD we discuss how we'd prefer the show to be rather than just accept it for what it is? Gosh, I don't know, something to talk about. 4 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said: It's a non-issue, as are the complaints of people on boards like this when his wallet has never been fatter. Sorry lads, we're not going to change anything. Cancel All In 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 8 minutes ago, Brewster McCloud said: Why would Vince go to the trouble of making any of these changes, though? He wouldn't. I think we've weeded out the "NXT but 3 hours = £££" sorts on here, so people aren't necessarily thinking in terms of WWE hitting untold heights from the ideas, just how they'd fantasy present the show for their own personal enjoyment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 25 minutes ago, air_raid said: Wasn't the question posed. Why WOULD we discuss how we'd prefer the show to be rather than just accept it for what it is? Gosh, I don't know, something to talk about. Sorry lads, we're not going to change anything. Cancel All In 2. I see. It's essentially a fantasy booking thread, rather than considered ways to increase the audience. Maybe I've misunderstood, but shouldn't any suggestion about what the WWE should do be considered as logical steps they might well take, rather than mere selfish "Go back to what it was like when I first started watching" wish fulfillment? I dunno. I do sometimes wonder what it would take to get me watching again. Wrestling used to be such a big part of my life, but now I've moved on and even if all the nice suggestions made above did happen I think it would still feel like sex with the ex at best. It's a catch 22 because I'd only watch wrestling again if it was hot again, and it won't get hot again because people like me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 WWE need no lessons from internet fans on how to make fat stacks of cash, to be sure. And Vince is never going to change his product, and why should he. You can see with NXT though that HHH is interested in where else you could take the product, and what opportunities that might create. I don't think the Raw audience would tune out if the product was presented differently, and there's always the possibility more might tune in. It's probably chasing a dream, but there have been points in the WWF's past where it was genuinely mainstream, on the zeitgeist and pulling some truly vast audience numbers. NXT is also where WWE experiments with things like a UK division, open tournaments like Mae Young etc. There's the tantalising concept of the WWE as the nexus of a larger industry, helping to feed and promote the wider sport as well as poaching all the best talent. If I had to guess, I think that's HHH's vision - a more co-operative, NWA style approach to the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brewster McCloud Posted September 29, 2018 Share Posted September 29, 2018 Absolutely, Loki, but I suppose what I'm more interested in is the underlying point of the thread, though, which is whether any change(s) to Raw could ever make wrestling as hot as it was in the 80s/late 90s, or has that ship sailed for good? Are these suggestions just about making it more palatable for the existing audience, or is it still possible to entince yer man on the street who wouldn't usually watch wrestling into giving it another shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted September 29, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted September 29, 2018 I think history has taught us that to hook the mainstream audience you need that one hot, cross-over star or that one hot, cross-over feud. I think if you read back through this thread you'll see loads of suggestions that could certainly help those two things occur. Of course a lot of it is personal taste, but honestly - would Stone Cold Steve Austin have been as big as he was if he'd have been losing clean to the Miz or trading wins with Dolph Ziggler? And would The Rock have become what he became if he landed on our screens as Rocky Maivia and then had zero character development for the rest of his career? And would Austin vs. McMahon have even happened if, instead of trying new things and looking for that big feud that would turn the tide against WCW, they just decided putting on endless matches was the way to go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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