Little Tommy Robinson

[David]

15 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Then you are ANTIFA.  The context you are using it in is the tabloid / Alt right description which I credited you with being too clever to fall into that trap of doing.  As discussed many pages ago, being ANTIFA should be a default setting for a human, the press have turned it into a pejorative term but fuck them,  how can being anti fascist be turned into being a bad guy.

No, none of my views on ANTIFA the so-called organisation (and let's assume that my mention of ANTIFA from here on out is in reference to the loose organisation that exists) have been moulded by the press or the alt-right, but simply by my own experiences. Maybe you've experienced differently, but what I said above pretty much sums them up in my eyes.

I'm all for protest and robust discussion (but not argument, as @Carbomb knows!) but when that discussion breaks down into violence, on either side, I'm all out. No one wins in that type of debate. And, in my experience, the badge-wearing ANTIFA crowd love a chance to throw some rocks at the police and generally play at being Hollywood protester for a few hours. 

None of this is to excuse the far-right by the way, who do just as much to tarnish any protest they decide to join up with as well. That Brexit march the other day was peaceful for the most part, but there was an element of cunts who were all too happy to cause aggro. 

Are the far-right EDL/NF types worse than ANTIFA? Absolutely, because ANTIFA generally tend to just make things harder for those on the left to be taken seriously and respected, while the far-right have violence as the aim of their game.

I can kind of understand where the ANTIFA types are coming from when they want to punch an EDL member in the face, but when you've been around for a while you realise that such tactics don't work. They only make you think you're cool and give you something to brag about to your pals, same as the EDL lads who think they're cool when they do the same.

But it accomplishes fuck all, as we've seen over the years. 

20 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I'll try and find a Twitter thread for you, someone had the minutes of a meeting from the early 80s from a Socialist party and fuck me, why you'd join these bunch of clowns after reading it is beyond me.  It's exactly like you described!  Sad to see that some things never changed.

Yeah, the left have always lacked the ability to organise, while the right tend to do that a bit better. Not much better, mind you, but a bit better. 

[Keith Houchen]

Fair enough, I'm just opposed to the disingenuous cack that tries to paint anti fascists as the bad guys.  By the collective umbrella term, ANTIFA represents the V For Vendetta fanboys, where in truth, WW2 veterans are literally people who used violence to oppose fascism.  Completely different scenarios of course, but that's kind of my point.  If you are opposed to fascism then you are ANTIFA.  Doesn't matter of you're a tory or an anarchist, you're ANTIFA.  

Probably just a matter of semantics, not semitics

[Loki]

Is there any evidence of an organised far-left "ANTIFA" organisation though?  I hear the phrase bandied about by Trump supporters, and there are people who turn up in masks ala Occupy, but an actual funded, politically organised movement like EDL?  

[PowerButchi]

Closest is probably Hope Not Hate, I suppose. But they're not heavy.

Edited December 12, 2018 by PowerButchi

[David]

7 minutes ago, Loki said:

Is there any evidence of an organised far-left "ANTIFA" organisation though?  I hear the phrase bandied about by Trump supporters, and there are people who turn up in masks ala Occupy, but an actual funded, politically organised movement like EDL?  

Depends what you mean by organised. I know a group of people who run an ANTIFA group in Glasgow. They consider themselves an organisation, and can call upon a decent little number of people when they want to roll up to an event.

Also depends what you mean by funded? The Socialist groups in Scotland aren't funded except what is taken in yearly subs and collections from members and the public.

[Tamura]

4 hours ago, David said:

I can kind of understand where the ANTIFA types are coming from when they want to punch an EDL member in the face, but when you've been around for a while you realise that such tactics don't work. They only make you think you're cool and give you something to brag about to your pals, same as the EDL lads who think they're cool when they do the same.

But it accomplishes fuck all, as we've seen over the years. 

I don't disagree that current ANTIFA tactics (the lack of an actual organisation means there generally isn't an organised strategy behind the activity, other than turn up and punch a Nazi) are at times counter-productive, the idea that militant anti-fascism has accomplished "fuck all" is simply historically inaccurate. 

To give just a few examples of what has been achieved just in the UK over the years:

The BNP paper sale at Brick Lane, which dated way back to the NF in the 1970s, was repeatedly disrupted in the early 1990s to the point the BNP simply decided to stop going there. Other paper sales across the country were similarly disrupted, preventing the BNP from spreading their message.

BNP marches and rallies were repeatedly disrupted, to the point where the BNP said "confrontational street politics hindered our political progress" and there would be "no more marches, meetings, punch-ups", after realising they were repeatedly coming off worse in street clashes with anti-fascists (that's not to say anti-fascists are all Supermen, merely that they tended to ensure only getting in clashes where they would "win" to avoid giving the BNP a morale and/or propaganda boost) and the party's violent image was keeping them politically marginalised. 

In the 1990s Blood and Honour had a "base" in area around Carnaby Street with shops selling Nazi memorabilia and several pubs well known as hangouts for Nazi skinheads, to the extent that skinheads from around the world knew to go there to meet up with fellow Nazis. Due to various forms pressure from militant anti-fascists the memorabilia was removed from sale and the landlords decided it was in their better interests to ensure the Nazis drank elsewhere.

The attempt to "go public" with Blood and Honour gigs was thwarted with the Battle of Waterloo. It had been rumoured that a music promoter was looking to take the gigs "above ground" (the exact location of gigs by Nazi skinhead bands can't be published beforehand, back then they used to use a redirection meeting point) due to Skrewdriver's popularity in Europe, this didn't happen due to the events of the day. It remains the case today that gigs are difficult to attend.

The BNP's morale, recruitment and retention of recruits were affected by the anti-fascist campaign. When your political activity has a good chance of landing you in hospital, only the real hardcore tend to stick around. Professor Nigel Copsey of Teesside University is a specialist in fascism and anti-fascism with numerous published works, agrees militant anti-fascists "unquestionably had an impact on the BNP’s organisational and strategic development". The BNP also concede this, veteran activist Eddy Butler wrote in 1997 "One of the many harmful effects of sending our activists out on this type of activity is that it leads to a high rate of attrition".

[Keith Houchen]

15 minutes ago, Loki said:

Is there any evidence of an organised far-left "ANTIFA" organisation though?

Organised and far-left aren't words you often see in the same sentence!

The mobilised groups tend to be a bit like Al Qaeda, no overall leadership or structure per se but lots of local cells who work both independently and collectively when needed.  As you'd expect, paranoia is rife so it takes more than just turning up to a demo to be welcomed into the fold.  I think I was alright because I had my picture on Red Watch!

[David]

1 hour ago, Tamura said:

I don't disagree that current ANTIFA tactics (the lack of an actual organisation means there generally isn't an organised strategy behind the activity, other than turn up and punch a Nazi) are at times counter-productive, the idea that militant anti-fascism has accomplished "fuck all" is simply historically inaccurate. 

To give just a few examples of what has been achieved just in the UK over the years:

The BNP paper sale at Brick Lane, which dated way back to the NF in the 1970s, was repeatedly disrupted in the early 1990s to the point the BNP simply decided to stop going there. Other paper sales across the country were similarly disrupted, preventing the BNP from spreading their message.

BNP marches and rallies were repeatedly disrupted, to the point where the BNP said "confrontational street politics hindered our political progress" and there would be "no more marches, meetings, punch-ups", after realising they were repeatedly coming off worse in street clashes with anti-fascists (that's not to say anti-fascists are all Supermen, merely that they tended to ensure only getting in clashes where they would "win" to avoid giving the BNP a morale and/or propaganda boost) and the party's violent image was keeping them politically marginalised. 

In the 1990s Blood and Honour had a "base" in area around Carnaby Street with shops selling Nazi memorabilia and several pubs well known as hangouts for Nazi skinheads, to the extent that skinheads from around the world knew to go there to meet up with fellow Nazis. Due to various forms pressure from militant anti-fascists the memorabilia was removed from sale and the landlords decided it was in their better interests to ensure the Nazis drank elsewhere.

The attempt to "go public" with Blood and Honour gigs was thwarted with the Battle of Waterloo. It had been rumoured that a music promoter was looking to take the gigs "above ground" (the exact location of gigs by Nazi skinhead bands can't be published beforehand, back then they used to use a redirection meeting point) due to Skrewdriver's popularity in Europe, this didn't happen due to the events of the day. It remains the case today that gigs are difficult to attend.

The BNP's morale, recruitment and retention of recruits were affected by the anti-fascist campaign. When your political activity has a good chance of landing you in hospital, only the real hardcore tend to stick around. Professor Nigel Copsey of Teesside University is a specialist in fascism and anti-fascism with numerous published works, agrees militant anti-fascists "unquestionably had an impact on the BNP’s organisational and strategic development". The BNP also concede this, veteran activist Eddy Butler wrote in 1997 "One of the many harmful effects of sending our activists out on this type of activity is that it leads to a high rate of attrition".

Yeah, there may have been some results in the 80's and 90's, but I honestly don't like the approach they take today.

A few years back I recall a bit of a furore when the BNP were reported to be setting up a stall in Glasgow. If you've been up in Scotland you'll know that the BNP are virtually non-existent, even during their recent resurgence, so this was seen as a big deal.

A group of us showed up nice and early, only to be met with a wallpaper pasting table and two of the oldest looking fellas I've ever seen. Apparently these guys were war veterans who'd been roped into appearing alongside two younger BNP members who had gotten wind that a welcome party was on the way and who had fucked off sharpish, leaving these codgers to hold the fort.

Anyway, we started a dialogue, and one of them was under the impression they were at a "help for heroes" war stall, having been told that they would be "helping out" homeless soldiers by showing up and collecting signatures for a petition. The other didn't have much to say at all, he was just there with his pal. Now, this isn't something that the far-right haven't done before. They have previous for this kind of shit, duping older gents into appearing as though they back the far-right cause. They rope these old fellas into standing alongside them under the pretence that they're "helping out" soldiers and protesting against how veterans are treated by the government and all that jazz.

Anyway, it was obvious that there wasn't much to see. Two bystanders who'd been listening in offered to help them pack up the table and the two Union Jack flags into a bag they had and sort them a taxi back home to Paisley.

At that point "ANTIFA" appeared on the scene, about ten of them decked out in their gear, and they set about letting these old fellas know that they weren't welcome, even going as far as spitting on one of the old guys medals he had on his blazer.

The two bystanders, who were guys in their mid 40's I'd guess, stepped in and tried to stop it and were immediately branded as "the BNP" and given grief as well.

Eventually the cops showed up and took the old boys away "for their own safety" and to take them home.

Anyway, that was the last straw for me. I didn't want a part of any of it, and since then I've not been out to any political rally or anything of the sort. Politics turns even the most level-headed of people into ugly, nasty bastards, and I don't really want to be part of it.

Like I said, if people want to protest and counter-protest then fine, have at it. But leave the violence at the fucking door, because it never ends well. 

[Tamura]

1 hour ago, David said:

Yeah, there may have been some results in the 80's and 90's, but I honestly don't like the approach they take today.

I agree the approach can be problematic and counter-productive, as I acknowledged right at the start of my post.

As I also said, the problem is a lack of strategy behind actions compared to the 80s and 90s when you acknowledge militant anti-fascism was more effective. Disrupting paper sales, marches, meetings or redirection points frequently involved the use of violence if necessary and certainly wasn't shied away from, but the key objective was the disruption to the fascists' activity not necessarily inflicting the maximum amount of violence. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Tamura

[Keith Houchen]

I suppose the introduction of digital and social media have had a big effect on how to organise and how to counter a demo.  I remember in the early 90s seeing a rather large chap with a shaven head walking up and down Far Gosford Street, sporting a T Shirt that had been printed that read "Nick Griffin is giving a speech at Royal Warwicks at 3pm today".

He might still be walking around FarGo village for all I know.

[Tamura]

25 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I suppose the introduction of digital and social media have had a big effect on how to organise and how to counter a demo.  I remember in the early 90s seeing a rather large chap with a shaven head walking up and down Far Gosford Street, sporting a T Shirt that had been printed that read "Nick Griffin is giving a speech at Royal Warwicks at 3pm today".

He might still be walking around FarGo village for all I know.

Oh absolutely. Back in the day you might see the BNP on TV and wonder how to go about joining. Depending on where you lived, if it was an area with BNP activity you might be lucky and see a BNP sticker with contact details, or stumble across a paper sale. But if you didn't you'd probably have to resort to going to the library and looking in a reference book for the BNP's address. There was occasional pre-publicity in local papers and suchlike for the marches they did, but branch meetings were never advertised publicly. 

[David]

And for the purposes of clarity, I have absolutely no issue with lefties getting physical with their counterparts on the right, it's more the peaceful protesters that I don't like to see get grief, on either side.

[Merzbow]

No-one on the far right is peaceful, they incite hate just by being.

[David]

1 hour ago, Merzbow said:

No-one on the far right is peaceful, they incite hate just by being.

Not everyone at that Brexit protest thing, for example, was a far-right hate-monger though. You do get right-wing people at such events who aren't "far-right," and those people don't deserve to be assaulted or threatened.

Edited December 13, 2018 by David

[Hannibal Scorch]

This has been fun from the  Crimewatch Basildon, Essex UK facebook group. Comments are like Tommy's wet dream