VeganMania

[Carbomb]

2 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The meat industry will shrink, and adapt, and over time meat consumption may even become the minority (though this is unlikely - meat consumption may be declining in the West, but it's increasing in cultures that traditionally ate less meat as they become more economically powerful), but it's not going to go away. And if it does, it will be such a long, gradual process that the changes won't be felt by any one generation. It's not going to be a case of mass lay-offs and job losses, and slaughterhouse workers being retrained to work the tofu plantations.

This is kind of it. In addition to the point I made about the developing world, there are also countries like Japan and the Koreas in which the average person didn't traditionally eat meat until they became at least partially Westernised. And in Japan's case, it's become a cultural thing: their dairy and meat industry has become something of a point of national pride for them, because it's something they see as being a Western thing that they've adapted to and now can do as well as anyone else. Look at the market for Kobe beef; there's no way they're giving that up in a hurry.

I don't think meat consumption will ever truly stop, though. It may be greatly reduced, but you'll always get people hunting or fishing.

[UK Kat Von D]

12 minutes ago, Accident Prone said:

That's all well and good fella, but it has to be at a steady pace to ensure minimal casualties.

Also, this; "Pretending you only care about workers in the meat industry while not caring about any other industry is totally flawed" is bait that I'm not falling for. In no way did I insinuate this. I'm very passionate about the work force of this country, especially the working classes, and the idea of just sacking them all off in one massive, blind cut is angering. 

Your ideology is sound but the collateral damage and rapid nature that you want it implemented isn't.

And yes, I'm well aware I fell for the bait. I'm an emotional sap.

I said I expect Veganism to be the norm in 12 years. That is plenty of time for change, it’s hardly what I would consider rapid. You didn’t seem to care about any of the other jobs I listed which are now defunct? Over the last 100 years we have seen countless jobs come and go, that’s how development works.

14 minutes ago, Cod Eye said:

But would both industries pay the same? I mean, would picking/cleaning/preparing vegetables pay the same as a skilled job butchering a cow for example. I have a friend who was a butcher but was laid off about 10 years ago and still hasn't been able to find a job which paid anywhere near his old job. He even had to sell his house to one of those wanky companies that buy your house for a fraction of the value and rent it back to you.

It has been acknowledged in this thread that vegan food is more expensive, so yeah there is money in it. Vegans don’t eat for free. Shame that your mate hasn’t been able to learn another skill in ten years

[David]

Here's my question for anyone who can be arsed to answer.

If a vegan or vegetarian diet is supposed to be good for you, why do so few high-level athletes follow it? 

I mean, I know a few do, but most don't. 

Take Georges St Pierre for example, one of the fittest, most tuned-in athletes on the planet. The guy is a physical specimen, and is as far removed from the "bodybuilder, testosterone, eat red meat or you're a pussy" type of twat that can be found in gyms up and down the country.

Dude has a reported net worth of over $30 million, and has a livelihood built on him being able to perform at the very best his body will allow.

His scientific approach to physical fitness and peak performance is second to none, and he only works with the very best.

Dr John Bernardi, PhD and assistant University Professor in physiology and nutrient biochemistry, is in charge of GSP's nutrient science, and heads up a small team consisting of two professional chefs (each of who cost around $50,000 per year) who work exclusively in providing GSP with his diet.

A diet that consists of fresh herbs, spices, vinegars, vegetables, fish, steak, eggs, chicken and other fresh meat. All high quality products.

Which leads me to ask, when someone who is insanely healthy and reliant on their body being at peak physical condition, and who has virtually unlimited funds not only for their actual food but also to tap into the very best minds in nutrition doesn't follow the vegan diet, why should anyone else?

I mean, I did try the vegetarian diet for around a year, and I found that despite following numerous meal plans and so on I lost a lot of muscle mass, got sick more than I ever had, and generally didn't look very healthy. I had less energy.

After switching to more of a hybrid diet that consisted of less meat than most people probably eat, but a focus on higher quality of meat combined with a lot of vegetables and fruit, I feel absolutely fantastic.

This isn't a jab at anyone, by the way, and I'm not saying that being vegan is right or wrong, I'm simply asking a question.

[deathrey]

17 hours ago, Accident Prone said:

I love cauliflower and broccoli, so when I dip into the other side they become my 'main' ingredients. They're brilliant substitutes for anything (well, anything I can cook). I'm gonna try cauliflower pizza base at some point too as that sounds great and well up my street.

If you're around Birmingham town centre on a Thursday, Friday or Saturday, I absolutely recommend Digbeth Dining Club as they usually have some choice veggie/vegan options (apart from the mashed potato samosa, that wasn't to my tastes at all).

I love Digbeth Dining Club, they had a full vegetarian/vegan one last bank holiday weekend.

I was never a fan of cauliflower but have recently started having it tandoori style and I'm a total convert now and love it

[Cod Eye]

1 minute ago, UK Kat Von D said:

I said I expect Veganism to be the norm in 12 years. That is plenty of time for change, it’s hardly what I would consider rapid. You didn’t seem to care about any of the other jobs I listed which are now defunct? Over the last 100 years we have seen countless jobs come and go, that’s how development works.

It has been acknowledged in this thread that vegan food is more expensive, so yeah there is money in it. Vegans don’t eat for free. Shame that your mate hasn’t been able to learn another skill in ten years

3

Thing is, in the area we live in all the big industries(coal, glass) have been replaced with call centres which pay about £8 an hour. That should be a warning about mass closures of big industries too. The land the mines were on in the Barnsley area is now dirt cheap, but the only industries interested in buying it are those that rely on unskilled workers. My mate went from earning close to £15 an hour(which was double Barnsley's average wage at the time) to less than half at first. He's not unique either, as the call centres are teaming with people 45 years plus that were once classed as skilled workers and paid as such!

As for Vegan meals costing more, that has absolutely no bearing on the amount they pay their staff. 

One way that could accelerate fully meat-free diets becoming the norm is if people were given land to grow their own crops, The Goodlife style.

[Bellenda Carlisle]

8 minutes ago, David said:

 

Which leads me to ask, when someone who is insanely healthy and reliant on their body being at peak physical condition, and who has virtually unlimited funds not only for their actual food but also to tap into the very best minds in nutrition doesn't follow the vegan diet, why should anyone else?

I don't like contributing to animals being slaughtered and I don't need to compete with elite athletes.

 

[Carbomb]

6 minutes ago, David said:

Here's my question for anyone who can be arsed to answer.

If a vegan or vegetarian diet is supposed to be good for you, why do so few high-level athletes follow it? 

I mean, I know a few do, but most don't. 

Take Georges St Pierre for example, one of the fittest, most tuned-in athletes on the planet. The guy is a physical specimen, and is as far removed from the "bodybuilder, testosterone, eat red meat or you're a pussy" type of twat that can be found in gyms up and down the country.

Dude has a reported net worth of over $30 million, and has a livelihood built on him being able to perform at the very best his body will allow.

His scientific approach to physical fitness and peak performance is second to none, and he only works with the very best.

Dr John Bernardi, PhD and assistant University Professor in physiology and nutrient biochemistry, is in charge of GSP's nutrient science, and heads up a small team consisting of two professional chefs (each of who cost around $50,000 per year) who work exclusively in providing GSP with his diet.

A diet that consists of fresh herbs, spices, vinegars, vegetables, fish, steak, eggs, chicken and other fresh meat. All high quality products.

Which leads me to ask, when someone who is insanely healthy and reliant on their body being at peak physical condition, and who has virtually unlimited funds not only for their actual food but also to tap into the very best minds in nutrition doesn't follow the vegan diet, why should anyone else?

I mean, I did try the vegetarian diet for around a year, and I found that despite following numerous meal plans and so on I lost a lot of muscle mass, got sick more than I ever had, and generally didn't look very healthy. I had less energy.

After switching to more of a hybrid diet that consisted of less meat than most people probably eat, but a focus on higher quality of meat combined with a lot of vegetables and fruit, I feel absolutely fantastic.

This isn't a jab at anyone, by the way, and I'm not saying that being vegan is right or wrong, I'm simply asking a question.

There are a number of points one can argue.

He's a professional athlete in a short career - he needs to take the shortest route possible to achieving optimal health and fitness. The vast majority of people on this planet don't need to do that; they can afford to take the slower, less intensive approach. 

Also, just because meat will do that for you, doesn't mean you should have it, or that it should be allowed; one could argue that, in a future in which veganism is a majority viewpoint, sports commissions might outlaw non-vegan diets as a form of "cheating" in the same way steroids are viewed now.

[Accident Prone]

Guys, we have to remember that we're arguing with the same guy who pretends to be a Flat Earther just to freak out his clients. 

I'm not saying he doesn't have bounds of enthusiasm for veganism and it's benefits (as we all should) but I get the feeling that we're being had by some of these more extreme views.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Accident Prone

[Carbomb]

I've actually got a lot of time for Max, politically speaking. I'm not down with some of the more controversial views he's put out here, but when he's not going for the shock value, he makes some well-argued points. A bit like David in the MMA forum.

[Kaz Hayashi]

4 hours ago, UK Kat Von D said:

Yeah, fuck those people they can just find a new job. I think ten years is totally realistic.

 

The China market is pretty volatile and can have big shifts in consumer trends 

And whether you’re being serious or not Kat, that attitude right there is exactly why it won’t happen anytime soon. 

You are coming across as if you are preaching to the converted, and that everyone who doesn’t agree can get fucked. Regardless of your agenda, whether you’re right or wrong is irrelevant.

You need to realise that by speaking out for veganism (which I applaud) you are promoting a concept, you’re technically selling a product and you’re a member of the sales team. 

You are telling people to change. People don’t like change. You’re telling them how to live, people don’t like being told how to live. You need to approach it like a fucking PR campaign and not piss off your customers.

It’s exactly the same principle as politics. If you sound high & mighty and call people cunts for not following your lead, you look like a twat to those you’re trying to convince.

Anyway, enough of that. Out of curiosity (and sorry if I’ve missed it mentioned), do you do much promotion of Silverback ink?

[David]

3 minutes ago, Bellenda Carlisle said:

I don't like contributing to animals being slaughtered and I don't need to compete with elite athletes.

Neither do I particularly, but if it's a choice between contributing to animals playing their part in the food chain or me being sick, losing muscle mass and not generally being as healthy as I can be, then it's a choice that can only go one way for me.

And it has nothing to do with being an elite athlete, and more to do with looking at what those who rely on being healthy put in their bodies. 

There's a lot wrong with the meat industry, and much of it is based upon the demand for fast food, and cheap, rubbish meat in bulk. If we can away with that to an extent and exist with a better, more healthy approach to meat consumption I think it would benefit everyone.

The complete removal of meat from the food chain wouldn't work in my opinion.

6 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

He's a professional athlete in a short career - he needs to take the shortest route possible to achieving optimal health and fitness. The vast majority of people on this planet don't need to do that; they can afford to take the slower, less intensive approach. 

Of course we don't have to do that. 

We don't have to wear clothes that are fashionable and produced cheaply in other parts of the world. We don't have to use mobile phones that were produced in sub-standard conditions for workers. We don't have to drive cars that pollute the environment, and so on and so forth.

But we do. Why? Because, as the dominant species on the planet it makes life easier for us and allows us to do what we do.

9 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Also, just because meat will do that for you, doesn't mean you should have it, or that it should be allowed; one could argue that, in a future in which veganism is a majority viewpoint, sports commissions might outlaw non-vegan diets as a form of "cheating" in the same way steroids are viewed now.

Yeah, but that future you speak of may feature sports played entirely by human/machine hybrids who shoot fire out of their eyes and have knives for fingers. 

I'm not interested in the future we may see, I'm interested in the here and now, and if someone who relies on being physically fit, and who is known for their incredible fitness isn't following a vegan diet then it leads me to believe that maybe the vegan diet isn't the best option if a person wants to be fit and healthy.

If we're coming at it purely from a "it's not nice to kill animals" viewpoint then fair enough, that's someone's opinion and how they live is up to them, but from a health viewpoint I don't think a purely vegan diet is ideal. 

As with most things, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle, which would consist, in this case, of a diet that isn't loaded with cheap meat that's been produced by farms who load their livestock up with all kinds of shit.

Any ideal future would see fast food and demand for cheap, rubbish meats die away, replaced by a sustainable industry that sees a focus more on quality of product.

[Accident Prone]

5 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I've actually got a lot of time for Max, politically speaking. I'm not down with some of the more controversial views he's put out here, but when he's not going for the shock value, he makes some well-argued points. 

Bang on. He's verging on being the perfect Bond villain at times, which is where I disconnect entirely as I struggle to believe that anyone with that solid basis in left-libertarianism can be so harsh and blinkered towards the workforce and the working classes.

[Bellenda Carlisle]

This thread was more fun when people were talking about food in a light hearted manner.

[UK Kat Von D]

11 minutes ago, Kaz Hayashi said:

You are telling people to change. People don’t like change. 

Anyway, enough of that. Out of curiosity (and sorry if I’ve missed it mentioned), do you do much promotion of Silverback ink?

I’m sponsored by another company so don’t use Silverback, don’t think I’ve ever used it actually. I’m not telling anyone what to do though. Just my thoughts, reasons and projections for the future. I’m not planning to force people to go vegan.

 

Loads of top atheletes are Vegan. Pete Dunne and Tyler Bates are. David Haye went vegan to prolong his career. Mike Tyson did it to undo all the damage he did to himself. Tom Brady did it and now like half the NFL followed suit. Lewis Hamilton is. Venus and Serena Williams started a few years ago to keep up with people loads younger than them. The Diaz brothers do it because it improves their performance. Most professional marathon runners are. Lots of body builders and power lifters have reached their personal bests after going vegan. Half the Avengers are vegan. Then on a mental side of things all the smartest people ever didn’t eat meat. It started with Pythagoras then we had Da Vinci, Sir Issac Newton, Nikola Tesla and Albert Einstein. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by UK Kat Von D

[Keith Houchen]

I wonder what impact Brexit could have on veganism?  Given how so many farming jobs, at least regarding the picking and processing of vegetables and crops is done by a large amount by an unskilled migrant workforce.  If more of them would be needed to facilitate a growth in, erm, growth of vegetables, would them being restricted getting into the country damage that growth?