VeganMania

[PunkStep]

29 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

Jobs become redundant all the time, it’s upto them to find new work. It won’t be governments removing farmed meat, it will be a drop in demand which puts them out of business. I doubt many people will continue to eat meat just because they want to support the economy or dying businesses.

Sure, but that demand isn't going to drastically fall off a cliff over the next 12 years is it? I think by that time veganism will obviously increase (and quite rapidly) but we're a long way off from it becoming the norm. Eating meat/dairy is something that could naturally phase out through generations, much like social acceptance on things such as homosexuality and cultural awareness but I don't see most of the existing population changing their habit and outlook on this so radically.

Edited September 25, 2018 by PunkStep

[UK Kat Von D]

I don’t see how it is radical to buy one product instead of another. Once they are both evenly priced and equally available then there would be a massive swing. Once the demand for meat goes down, that’ll push the price up. Price goes up demand will go down.  

12 years is a long time for habits to change. How long do you think people have had their current diets of meat once or twice a day? How long do you think things like freezers, transport systems, battery farms, preservatives, growth hormones and such have been around? It wasn’t that long ago in the grand scheme of things, the way humans currently consume meat is pretty new 

[Sphinx]

You're telling me America is going to stop eating meat in twelve years and McDonald's will just be doing vegan options? No chance. It'd take much, much longer.

Also, both being equally priced doesn't mean vegan would win out. A lot of people love the taste of meat and vegan substitutes can't replace that. Lab meat won't in that time frame either. This isn't bias from a meat eater either; I'm pescatarian.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Sphinx

[UK Kat Von D]

2 minutes ago, Sphinx said:

You're telling me America is going to stop eating meat in twelve years and McDonald's will just be doing vegan options? No chance. It'd take much, much longer.

McDonalds are already starting to bring out Vegan options in some countries.

From 2014-2017 the number of Vegans in the US went up 500%

[Sphinx]

What was the number of vegans in 2014 though? 500% sounds good on paper, but if it was a small amount in the first place and the increase is concentrated in predominantly progressive areas then I don't think it can be used as a reliable estimation.

I can't imagine your southern states will take to veganism or even vegetarianism en masse in that time scale. And this is just one country, albeit a large and influential one. I'm not convinced South America would be vastly vegan by then either.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Sphinx

[Chest Rockwell]

I'll take that 2030 bet at any odds. I can't even believe it's being seriously debated. Fucking ridiculous.

[Keith Houchen]

6 minutes ago, Sphinx said:

What was the number of vegans in 2014 though? 500% sounds good on paper, but if it was a small amount in the first place and the increase is concentrated in predominantly progressive areas then I don't think it can be used as a reliable estimation.

I can't imagine your southern states will take to veganism or even vegetarianism en masse in that time scale. And this is just one country, albeit a large and influential one. I'm not convinced South America would be vastly vegan by then either.

It now stands at approximately 6% of the population according to the data pool.  I think the UK is about 17%. That's based on who took the survey so allow for error either way. 

One of my personal favourite responses to a vegan or vegetarian populace is "But what will happen to all the cows? There will be thousands just roaming free"

[gmoney]

I imagine cows, sheep and chickens will become virtually extinct, which will be a bit of a shame. 

[Keith Houchen]

Just now, gmoney said:

I imagine cows, sheep and chickens will become virtually extinct, which will be a bit of a shame. 

A mate of mine put the case for introducing panda meat to our diet. It would guarantee they wouldn't go extinct. 

[Carbomb]

10 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

A mate of mine put the case for introducing panda meat to our diet. It would guarantee they wouldn't go extinct. 

There's a Mitchell & Webb video for almost every topic, it seems:

 

[Accident Prone]

Radical social and economic change is what is needed if we don't want the world to plunge into a seriously dark, frightening future. People with a huge passion for positive change are the building blocks for counter-culture and genuine political activism.  But believing that we're going to see something as massive as worldwide majority veganism by 2030 is dangerously optimistic.

Also, believing that hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of people being put out of job can should just "find new ones" is a warning sign; it's pushing a left-wing cause all the way to the extreme right-wing side of the fence. Surely, if your plan is to eradicate meat as the main food staple, then you would have the heart (and a plan) to help those toiling in that system to find new work? They're not all evil, 99% of them are just doing a job to support their families. They job market place is getting tighter as it is, just dumping all those people into that market with no help or system in place is heartless and bordering on the extreme "collateral damage" way of thinking.

This isn't just veganism; this is anarchist, subversive veganism.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Accident Prone
Edited to add the wonderful Stewart Lee photo to help that final line really connect.

[Carbomb]

One thing to bear in mind is that veganism isn't, in itself, a route to a better future, not right now. Modern industrial farming methods, especially in the US, involve intensive, artificial means, which often result in the land being depleted at an alarming rate of essential nutrients. Additionally, the set expectations of what average food prices should be mean that farmers end up making choices regarding what crops they should farm based on how profitable said crops are, and a lot of the time that means cultivating crops that draw a high price, but are not efficient in proportion to the land they're being cultivated on.

There are other concerns, such as destruction of the rainforests to cultivate enough arable land. Prime example which is often raised these days is avocado; the market for it has got so huge, it's becoming very damaging - both for the rainforests, and for the local populations of farm-workers, who still aren't being paid enough for fear of driving up the average price. Another example is coconuts: there's currently a craze for coconut oil, which has led to huge de-forestation in tropical countries in order to cultivate plantations, not to mention the massive risk of many of these countries, which are quite small and don't have as much arable land as others, effectively gambling a huge chunk of their economies on one crop, which is completely dependent on how long the developed world keeps going with the fad.

I'm not saying sticking to eating meat is the answer. It's well documented that the beef industry alone is responsible for huge environmental damage, including massive de-forestation in the Amazon, as well as the methane, carbon dioxide, and carbon monoxide emissions alone from the cattle themselves, the transportation of them, the disposal of the unused parts of carcass, the fuel burned for the energy required to process them, and the huge swathes of land used to cultivate feed for them. That's before we get to the other meat industries.

But the whole world turning to veganism (and that's not likely to happen any time soon) won't have the beneficial effect people want from it until we realise that it's not just what we do, but how we do it.

[UK Kat Von D]

I don’t sympathy for anyone who chooses to profit from immoral choices.

Times change and people find new jobs as the times change. Nobody gave a fuck about Blockbuster when they downloaded Netflix. Nobody gave a fuck about HMV when they started using torrents and iTunes. Nobody gives a fuck about high street shops when they use Amazon. Nobody give a fuck about black cabs when they use Uber. Does anyone think about the staff in Tesco when they choose self service? 

Society moves forward, people find new jobs.

[Keith Houchen]

1 minute ago, UK Kat Von D said:

I don’t sympathy for anyone who chooses to profit from immoral choices.

But morality isn't legislated, what is moral to you isn't moral to another and vice versa.  It can't be used as a measuring stick.  For instance, I'm sure you use vegan friendly tattoo ink but not every artist does.  Should they go out of business?

[Accident Prone]

5 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

I don’t sympathy for anyone who chooses to profit from immoral choices.

Times change and people find new jobs as the times change. Nobody gave a fuck about Blockbuster when they downloaded Netflix. Nobody gave a fuck about HMV when they started using torrents and iTunes. Nobody gives a fuck about high street shops when they use Amazon. Nobody give a fuck about black cabs when they use Uber. Does anyone think about the staff in Tesco when they choose self service? 

Society moves forward, people find new jobs.

This isn't a single retailer we're talking about here, this is a whole slice of the pie. 

There's a lot of dangerous ideas here. Saving the animals and promoting a healthier way of living that is affordable for all is great, but not giving a fuck about the working class people who will be financially affected is cold-blooded misanthropy. Do you think Sharon who works in a Ginsters facotory will just be able to jump into a new job along with all the other people who have been greatly affected. Change is good; steep, radical change at the expense of people's lives is not.