VeganMania

[David]

14 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

But that's not what you're arguing, which is "it's good for GSP, so it can't be healthy not to". 

No, my point is that "if someone of the calibre of GSP is doing it, can it really be so unhealthy for you?"

15 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

My point is that ordinary vegans, or average people looking to switch to veganism, aren't going to look at it from a pure nutritional standpoint, nor are they going to look at it from the perspective of an elite athlete.

A vegan diet will serve their nutritional purposes absolutely fine, because they don't need it to do the souped-up-human-being thing that GSP does, which also gives them more room to incorporate vegan ethics into their lifestyle.

What is an "average person?"

I consider myself an average person and the loss of meat from my diet caused a lot of issues. Granted, none were life-threatening, but issues nonetheless.

16 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

But you're smart enough to know that not every human being is the same, and therefore different things work for different people.

Max can thrive on Unleaded, but clearly you need Premium, dude! PREMIUUUUM!

I don't know Max, but I'd perhaps suggest that if his diet before going vegan consisted of a lot of meat-based rubbish such as fast-food and pre-packaged food, then that's where he's seeing the benefits, not from actually being vegan.

I'd like to see how he'd fare if he'd dropped the crap from his diet and incorporated only quality meats in smaller amounts instead.

 

[UK Kat Von D]

Well if I ate meat I would be violently sick, which can’t be good for my health 

[Carbomb]

4 minutes ago, David said:

No, my point is that "if someone of the calibre of GSP is doing it, can it really be so unhealthy for you?"

If you're arguing that, I don't think every vegan would disagree, because from what I've seen of this thread at least, the argument has been from an ethical and environmental perspective.

4 minutes ago, David said:

What is an "average person?"

I consider myself an average person and the loss of meat from my diet caused a lot of issues. Granted, none were life-threatening, but issues nonetheless.

Given that we've just been discussing GSP, I'd say it's fairly clear that, in this context, an "average" person is someone who is not an elite or professional athlete.

4 minutes ago, David said:

I don't know Max

"Well, Max - I don't know, Max. What do you say, Max?"

 

Sorry, you just put me in mind of The Producers, there.

[Cod Eye]

Something that confuses me is vegan "fish" and vegetarian "meats". Now, I know why they are produced, but it makes me wonder how they are allowed to call said products "meat" and "fish" when they are not meat or fish. It's getting into the Crab Sicks/Crab Flavoured Sticks territory...

[David]

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

If you're arguing that, I don't think every vegan would disagree, because from what I've seen of this thread at least, the argument has been from an ethical and environmental perspective.

So the argument isn't that being vegan is healthier for you? In that case, I agree.

From a health perspective, unless you suffer from some sort of medical condition like Williams does there is plenty you can, and should, be doing before going on a vegan kick.

And that was my point.

If this thread is just for people to say "it's terrible to animals!!!" then where's the discussion? Is anyone going to disagree with that?

Or if it's just for people to post photos and a few recipes then fair enough, I assumed we were discussing the subject in a wider context, which would include health and how it affects people.

I've seen a few others post their own personal experiences, and for me those are far more valuable than a recommendation of some trendy tofu bar in Fulham.

10 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

Well if I ate meat I would be violently sick, which can’t be good for my health

I consumed absolutely no meat for just over a year and I transitioned back just fine. If I'd went from eating no meat to sitting down to a chicken curry I'd have likely paid the price.

[Bellenda Carlisle]

28 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

This one bit is a bit of a red herring, to be honest. I get the rest of your perspective, but the whole thing about meat decomposing in the gut is down to people cutting away the fat from it, which they shouldn't do; the fat contains vital amino acids and enzymes that enable the body to digest the meat fully.

Fair enough man, I never had a sensitive stomach but I've felt nothing but a positive impact on my digestion. I don't miss meat sweats at all.

[David]

Just now, Bellenda Carlisle said:

Fair enough man, I never had a sensitive stomach but I've felt nothing but a positive impact on my digestion. I don't miss meat sweats at all.

What were you actually consuming that caused you to get the "meat sweats", if you don't mind me asking?

[Bellenda Carlisle]

2 minutes ago, David said:

What were you actually consuming that caused you to get the "meat sweats", if you don't mind me asking?

 Bodean's.

[David]

1 minute ago, Bellenda Carlisle said:

 Bodean's.

Yeah, that's probably down to the sheer amount you were consuming rather than anything to do with you actually consuming meat. If you swapped out BBQ for lean meat in suitable amounts you'd not suffer from the meat sweats at all.

[Carbomb]

4 minutes ago, David said:

So the argument isn't that being vegan is healthier for you? In that case, I agree.

From a health perspective, unless you suffer from some sort of medical condition like Williams does there is plenty you can, and should, be doing before going on a vegan kick.

And that was my point.

True, but again: people's bodies work differently, dependent on personal circumstances such as genetics, lifestyle, habitat, etc.

As the esteemed Bellenda points out, he's an example of how dropping meat from diet works for some.

4 minutes ago, David said:

If this thread is just for people to say "it's terrible to animals!!!" then where's the discussion? Is anyone going to disagree with that?

Or if it's just for people to post photos and a few recipes then fair enough, I assumed we were discussing the subject in a wider context, which would include health and how it affects people.

I've seen a few others post their own personal experiences, and for me those are far more valuable than a recommendation of some trendy tofu bar in Fulham.

I consumed absolutely no meat for just over a year and I transitioned back just fine. If I'd went from eating no meat to sitting down to a chicken curry I'd have likely paid the price.

I get that, but as I say: people aren't going to switch to veganism purely on the basis of nutrition unless they suffer from health problems otherwise. They'll also factor in ethics and environmentalism, so these are valid points when discussing why people switch even though an omnivorous diet isn't necessarily unhealthy.

There are plenty of great arguments for veganism - I wish I had the discipline to ignore my sensualist tendencies and go for it, but I don't.

The only argument in itself that some vegans make that pisses me off is "if we were meant to eat meat, we would have sharp teeth". That's moronic at best, and disingenuous at worst.

[Bellenda Carlisle]

2 minutes ago, David said:

Yeah, that's probably down to the sheer amount you were consuming rather than anything to do with you actually consuming meat. If you swapped out BBQ for lean meat in suitable amounts you'd not suffer from the meat sweats at all.

Thanks for the tip yeah? I wasn't eating there every day man, it's just something I've never felt since I switched. Actually that's not entirely true, real Fondue gives you next level cheese sweats but that's not vegan either so the point still stands.

[UK Kat Von D]

13 minutes ago, David said:

I consumed absolutely no meat for just over a year and I transitioned back just fine. If I'd went from eating no meat to sitting down to a chicken curry I'd have likely paid the price.

Think Id be sick because the idea of it makes my stomach turn. I’ve done too many vigils where I’ve watched pigs about to go into slaughter. I remember this one looked me directly in the eye with such pain and emotion that I’m a lifer now. The whole area around slaughterhouses stinks of blood, they know what’s coming and look at you for help. It’s genuinly crushing 

[David]

10 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

True, but again: people's bodies work differently, dependent on personal circumstances such as genetics, lifestyle, habitat, etc.

As the esteemed Bellenda points out, he's an example of how dropping meat from diet works for some.

As I posted in reply to Bellenda, simply reducing the amount of meat he eats, and changing the type of meat he eats would have provided him with the same benefits. 

10 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I get that, but as I say: people aren't going to switch to veganism purely on the basis of nutrition unless they suffer from health problems otherwise. They'll also factor in ethics and environmentalism, so these are valid points when discussing why people switch even though an omnivorous diet isn't necessarily unhealthy.

There are plenty of great arguments for veganism - I wish I had the discipline to ignore my sensualist tendencies and go for it, but I don't.

The only argument in itself that some vegans make that pisses me off is "if we were meant to eat meat, we would have sharp teeth". That's moronic at best, and disingenuous at worst.

Here's what my viewpoint is on the environmental and ethical side of thing is.

Instead of asking people to stop eating meat, we should be trying to discourage people from eating meat from certain sources. 

For example, if we done away entirely with the meat supplied by the fast food industry tomorrow it would make an enormous dent in the amount of meat consumed by people, and in turn in the amount of meat demanded by the industry.

It's this insane demand (which is growing, by the way, not lessening) that drives the shady practices we see from mass production of meat and livestock, along with the chemicals used to support it all.

That, for me, is a more realistic target that getting everyone to completely alter their diet. 

Quote

Thanks for the tip yeah? I wasn't eating there every day man, it's just something I've never felt since I switched. Actually that's not entirely true, real Fondue gives you next level cheese sweats but that's not vegan either so the point still stands.

Again, none of what you describe is because you were eating meat, it's because you were stuffing your face with meat. Eat less of it, and you'd be fine.

Edited September 25, 2018 by David

[Carbomb]

6 minutes ago, David said:

As I posted in reply to Bellenda, simply reducing the amount of meat he eats, and changing the type of meat he eats would have provided him with the same benefits. 

Here's what my viewpoint is on the environmental and ethical side of thing is.

Instead of asking people to stop eating meat, we should be trying to discourage people from eating meat from certain sources. 

For example, if we done away entirely with the meat supplied by the fast food industry tomorrow it would make an enormous dent in the amount of meat consumed by people, and in turn in the amount of meat demanded by the industry.

It's this insane demand (which is growing, by the way, not lessening) that drives the shady practices we see from mass production of meat and livestock, along with the chemicals used to support it all.

That, for me, is a more realistic target that getting everyone to completely alter their diet. 

I can certainly see the validity of your argument, although I'd say one thing you'll never quite persuade people of is the ethical side, if they believe that killing animals to eat them is wrong outright. There are some who might be persuaded if they thought the animal in question had been well looked after, and killed humanely, but I'd venture to speculate they might be a minority. But there are those who may be just as vocally opposed to hunting wild animals for meat as well, and I don't think you'll convince them. 

 

An interesting point I discussed with a vegetarian friend recently as a thought experiment: would a vegan or vegetarian whose diet is based purely on principle eat roadkill, or meat from any animal that's died via an accident (assuming the carcass isn't contaminated with chemicals)? 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Carbomb

[David]

2 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I can certainly see the validity of your argument, although I'd say one thing you'll never quite persuade people of is the ethical side, if they believe that killing animals to eat them is wrong outright. There are some who might be persuaded if they thought the animal in question had been well looked after, and killed humanely, but I'd venture to speculate they might be a minority. But there are those who may be just as vocally opposed to hunting wild animals for meat as well, and I don't think you'll convince them. 

As much as I can sympathise with their views, it's simply not how things are done. Animals all throughout the ecosystem kill each other for food. It's how it goes.

As much as people like to pretend we aren't, we're as much a part of that ecosystem as all other creatures on this planet.