MMA Unpopular Opinions

[Carbomb]

8 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Werdum (beat Vera and Gonzaga, but lost to Arlovski and JDS)

You missed out that he beat Cain too. 

[jimufctna24]

8 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

You missed out that he beat Cain too. 

I was going on their initial tenures in the UFC only. I don't think it's fair to rate many of the Pride fighter's success in the UFC as they entered the winter of their careers. Some were already past their best before making the move stateside. 

Also, Werdum became a more well-rounded heavyweight as his career progressed. Comparing Werdum circa 2005 with Werdum circa 2015 is like comparing two completely different fighters. As is comparing Fedor circa 2004 to Fedor circa 2011. Fighers mature and excel at different times and for different reasons. 

 

[David]

I could go on to mention how there are rumours that a lot of PRIDE fights were fixed, but let's not open that can of worms, eh?

[Egg Shen]

Looking at that list i think its safe to say that the feeling that the Pride guys tanked in the UFC is a little unfair, it seems like the majority just settled in and had very good UFC runs.

[the_mole]

Just because UFC or North American promotional based fighters had testing, didn't mean guys couldn't still cheat, what it meant was if they were near the top of a card, they would inevitability be tested at least once, it was more a maths test, in Pride you could roid all year long, that helped with fight camps and showing up to fights at your very peak, you do that with a commission test and you would most likely fail. 

[David]

18 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

Looking at that list i think its safe to say that the feeling that the Pride guys tanked in the UFC is a little unfair, it seems like the majority just settled in and had very good UFC runs.

I'm not saying they didn't have good runs in and of themselves, I'm saying, as someone who distinctly remembers being a fan at that time, that they underperformed majorly.

I don't remember Cro Cop being signed and PRIDE fans saying "I'm sure he'll do okay," or Shogun coming in to a response of "He'll be a handy addition to the roster, should have a good run."

These guys were touted as being set to tear their respective divisions up. Cro Cop was being touted as a stone cold killer who was gonna high kick his way to the title, and Shogun was viewed as a legit killer as well. 

It's upon these beliefs, along with his absolutely torrid North American run against guys who were, for the most part, not the same kind of cans he mostly fought in PRIDE, that I say that Fedor isn't the best heavyweight in the world.

[jimufctna24]

3 hours ago, David said:

These guys were touted as being set to tear their respective divisions up. Cro Cop was being touted as a stone cold killer who was gonna high kick his way to the title, and Shogun was viewed as a legit killer as well. 

Shogun did turn out to be a legit killer though, if you ignore those first 18 months where his performances suffered from knee injuries. Afterwards. he walloped Liddell, beat the seemingly unbeatable Machida twice (the first fight was a robbery), and avenged his earlier loss against Forrest. He therefore beat 3/4 of the UFC's best Light-Heavyweights from that era, with Rashad being the only exception. 

The Jones loss tells us very little. By all rights, the two should have been separated by at least one weightclass. The game completely changed once Jones turned up. 

3 hours ago, David said:

It's upon these beliefs, along with his absolutely torrid North American run against guys who were, for the most part, not the same kind of cans he mostly fought in PRIDE, that I say that Fedor isn't the best heavyweight in the world.

Two of the three fighters he lost to in Strikeforce were Pride stalwarts (Hendo and Werdum). He actually performed very well against heavyweights who had fought predominantly in the states. Arlovski and Sylvia dominated the US heavyweight scene in the mid-2000s and were still in their primes when Fedor beat them. Rogers was a flash in the pan, but dangerous for a brief period. Big Foot was, of course, the exception. 

If you look at Fedor circa 2004, he looked much more solid than the 2011 version and moved a lot quicker. He used to be able to explode out of danger. The 2011 version had clearly faded. Despite this, I do think the Werdum loss could have happened to a prime Fedor or anyone other heavyweight past or present. Werdum has the game to submit anyone. 

 

[David]

45 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Shogun did turn out to be a legit killer though, if you ignore those first 18 months where his performances suffered from knee injuries.

Hey, as we all know from the DJ/Cejudo thread, injuries don't mean jack shit. Best not to mention them 😉

46 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Afterwards. he walloped Liddell, beat the seemingly unbeatable Machida twice (the first fight was a robbery), and avenged his earlier loss against Forrest.

He "walloped Liddell" when he was a fighter who actually, legitimately was on his way out. It was his second-last UFC fight ever, and he'd went 1-3 since losing the title, and would eventually go 1-4 after being flattened by a middleweight.

He caught Machida, I'll give you that, and he beat Forrest in his 2nd last fight before he called it a day.

But honestly mate, anyone who looks at the body of work that Shogun has done over his UFC tenure and thinks "legit killer" is either a huge PRIDE fanboy, or they're suffering from CTE.

51 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Two of the three fighters he lost to in Strikeforce were Pride stalwarts (Hendo and Werdum). He actually performed very well against heavyweights who had fought predominantly in the states. Arlovski and Sylvia dominated the US heavyweight scene in the mid-2000s and were still in their primes when Fedor beat them. Rogers was a flash in the pan, but dangerous for a brief period. Big Foot was, of course, the exception. 

Christ.

Since leaving PRIDE he faced a 38 year old middleweight, a South Korean with acromegaly, a legit past his best dude in Timmeh who went on to lose his next fight to Ray fucking Mercer, an Arlosvski who was nowhere near being the guy he was lately, and who went on a four fight skid after losing to Fedor.

After dropping three in Strikeforce he went back to his default, which is carefully chosen fights against absolute fucking bums. He decisioned an ancient Jeff Monson who's had no knees for years, beat Ishii, Pedro Rizzo and the legend that is Singh Jaideep, before the absolute embarrassment of a farce against Maldonado in Russia.

Since then he's got flattened by Meathead and he's beaten Mir.

Sorry man, but that's not anywhere close to the resume of a guy who even deserves to be in the greatest heavyweight of all time discussion.

Can you seriously see what I'm saying here? Imagine a discussion about the best heavyweights of all time;

Cain Velasquez - Went 7 unbeaten in the UFC initially, beating Lesnar for the belt and the super-duper PRIDE star big Nog within three minutes before losing to another top guy in JDS, who he then went on to beat twice, along with Big Foot and Travis Browne. Two career losses against top guys. Injury issues hamper him in the discussion though, to be fair.

Stipe Miocic - Went 8-2 in the UFC before winning the belt against Werdum via stoppage. After that he went on a tear of 6 wins against the top guys in the division, which is a record, including a complete monster that no one thought he had a chance against. Lost to another all-time great in DC, hopes for a rematch.

DC - Well, I'm not going to even bother with this one, you already know it all.

Come on now, look at these resumes and tell me that Fedor sits above any of them. Even in his so-called prime in PRIDE he beat Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman, Big Nog and Cro Cop. I'd list the absolute cans in comparison but I could do without finger cramp on a sunny Thursday afternoon to be honest.

His resume just doesn't match up. His one defining quality is his unbeaten streak, which Bellator commentators love to trot out every time he fights, but he wasn't consistently fighting the very best.

He had a mystique and all that jazz because he's too lazy to learn English and doesn't have a sense of humour, but in actual fighting terms he's nowhere near the top of the pile.

[jimufctna24]

Just now, David said:

But honestly mate, anyone who looks at the body of work that Shogun has done over his UFC tenure and thinks "legit killer" is either a huge PRIDE fanboy, or they're suffering from CTE.

It was fleeting, but for a good 18 months or so, he was a legit killer. 

1 minute ago, David said:

a legit past his best dude in Timmeh who went on to lose his next fight to Ray fucking Mercer,

Come on now. 

Tim was in decent shape for the Fedor fight. Much better shape than he was in for the Mercer fight. Sylvia had beaten Vera only 8 months prior and had taken rounds off Big Nog just 4/5 months prior. There was nothing to say that Timmeh was past his best heading into the Fedor fight.

3 minutes ago, David said:

an Arlosvski who was nowhere near being the guy he was lately

It was the Fedor loss that sent Arlovski into a tailspin. The Arlovski that Fedor faced was the very best version. He had been training with Freddie Roach going into that fight and was coming off knockout wins over Nelson and Rothwell. 

6 minutes ago, David said:

Come on now, look at these resumes and tell me that Fedor sits above any of them. Even in his so-called prime in PRIDE he beat Mark Hunt, Mark Coleman, Big Nog and Cro Cop. I'd list the absolute cans in comparison but I could do without finger cramp on a sunny Thursday afternoon to be honest.

I already compared Fedor and Miocic's resumes on a previous page. I have no idea why you are so keen to dismiss Fedor's scalps as overrated or has-beens, but you don't extend the same sentiments to Miocic's scalps. If Arlovski and Sylvia were past their best when Fedor fought them, then what can we say about the versions of Overeem, Hunt and JDS that Miocic fought? If Cro Cop is overrated, then what about Ngannou? If losing to Hendo is embarrassing, then what about losing to Struve? Fedor beat the two best heavyweights he faced head to head in Big Nog and the 2005 version of Cro Cop. Miocic lost to the two best heavyweights he faced in the 2014 version of JDS and D.C. 

So I am being clear, I don't dispute that Fedor fought a lot of cans in Pride. I also ignore his wins post-Strikeforce for obvious reasons. 

[David]

38 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

I already compared Fedor and Miocic's resumes on a previous page. I have no idea why you are so keen to dismiss Fedor's scalps as overrated or has-beens, but you don't extend the same sentiments to Miocic's scalps. If Arlovski and Sylvia were past their best when Fedor fought them, then what can we say about the versions of Overeem, Hunt and JDS that Miocic fought? If Cro Cop is overrated, then what about Ngannou? If losing to Hendo is embarrassing, then what about losing to Struve? Fedor beat the two best heavyweights he faced head to head in Big Nog and the 2005 version of Cro Cop. Miocic lost to the two best heavyweights he faced in the 2014 version of JDS and D.C. 

So I am being clear, I don't dispute that Fedor fought a lot of cans in Pride. I also ignore his wins post-Strikeforce for obvious reasons. 

This is the unpopular opinions thread, right? Well, my unpopular opinion is that Fedor is by far not the greatest heavy of all time. Not even top three in my book.

Do you honestly think he's the best heavyweight of all time? Seriously?

[jimufctna24]

6 minutes ago, David said:

Do you honestly think he's the best heavyweight of all time? Seriously?

At the moment, yes. 

I think a prime version of Cain would beat any version of Fedor head to head. I also think that Fedor could have beefed up his resume a bit more in Pride by squaring off against the likes of Barnett and Sergei. However, for all Fedor's shortcomings, I don't see a better candidate. Fedor's resume compares well to Miocic's for reasons I underlined. Injuries have seriously negated Cain's potential.