Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 22, 2018 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 22, 2018 What a shit card that turned out to be. Decision after decision after decision topped off by the crushing downer of Shogun getting set about like a poor little OAP being mugged of his pension money at a cashpoint. This card was the least fun I've ever had watching MMA. It might sound knee-jerk with the fight so fresh but Shogun really needs to retire. Fuck the 3 fight 'streak' he was on prior to this. That was actually probably the worst thing that could happen to him because not only has he stuck around too long, I'm 100% certain he'll carry on after this, justifying it with the logic of 'I won 3 fights before this, I just got caught'. Even just looking at him physically, he looks fucked. He's the oldest most haggard 36 year old on the planet. He's aged loads over the last 5 years. And even since his last fight last March, I thought during his entrance tonight that he looked noticably worse than he did then. He looks worn down in the face, he's getting that proper Ric Flair body (again, at 36!) and he moves like my Nan. All the injuries, all the hard fights, the Chute Boxe gym wars back in the day, he's completely knackered. I had to shake my head at Dan Hardy and John Gooden talking about Shogun during his walkout and acting like he was better than ever, had reinvented himself etc. I said before the fight, that 3 fight win streak was misleading. He didn't look good in the Little Nog and Corey Anderson and probably should've lost the Anderson one. He wasn't on some run of good form. He'd managed to cobble together 3 wins due to a bit of luck with the judging and, in the case of Villante, a favourable style matchup against a low level brawler. Hardy and Gooden going on like he was on some big resurgence was way off the mark. Comparing his performances in those 3 wins to his actual peak performances against Machida, Liddell, Overeem, Rampage etc is like night and day. He's not even near the fighter he was when he fought Hendo and Vera a few years back, for fuck's sake. Watching him get battered and finished tonight reminded me of when Roy Nelson KO'd Big Nog in Abu Dhabi a few years back. Just uncomfortable to watch. The only silver lining I can find to this is at least Shogun won't be fed to Cormier now. That was fucking silly talk. There's literally nobody I want to see Shogun fight. It's over. He had a great career, he's got nothing to prove. A legend, a warrior, a great fighter. And more than that, one of the sport's real good guys. Nobody has a bad word to say about Shogun. He's too nice a bloke to see get cabbaged. Watching him tonight was like that awful moment when you realise your dog needs the dreaded trip to the vet to be put out of its misery. Just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Shogun's absolute peak came 13 years ago. That's amazing to consider. This is how I rate his level of performance over the years: 2002-2004: High quality prospect. Not quite the finished article. 2005-2006: At his absolute peak. Arguably the best fighter in the world. Certainly in the top 3 with Fedor and GSP. 2007- Mid 2009: Injury prone and a shadow of the fighter he was just a few years earlier. Mid-2009 -2010: Back on form. But still a shade off his 2005 peak. 2011-2012: Lost an additional step. But still a fringe contender. 2013-2018: Gatekeeper and in the winter of his career (a long winter at that) So aye, Hardy and Gooden were talking bollocks. I get that it's their job to hype up what they see before their eyes. But there are reasonable limits to hyperbole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 23, 2018 I'd say that timeline is pretty spot on. That little spell in 2009/10 where he fought Liddell then Machida twice, I think he looked as good as he ever did in Pride. Machida back then was arguably just as good, if not better than anyone Shogun beat in Pride. And Shogun got the better of him twice (balls to the judges in the first fight). Not only that, he solved the Machida puzzle at a time when his opponents couldn't land a glove on him, let alone beat him. And all this after a terrible layoff with the knee injuries and the awful showing on his return vs Coleman. But then he got injured again and by the time he came back in 2011, Jon Jones was waiting for him and his time on top was a wrap. Jones took the 205 division to a different level and any version of Shogun wouldn't have lived with him. It's a shame Gustafsson is injured because I'd have been well up for Gus vs Anthony Smith at 227. I liked Smith's callout as well. Whatever they give him now is going to seem like a letdown compared to Gus but I wouldn't mind seeing that Manuwa fight, to be honest. Smith vs Khalil Rountree is another fight I'd love to see. It's nice to see 205 finally start to get more depth to where you can mix and match some newer faces in there. Undercard was mostly cack. Well, the Fight Pass bit looked alright. The rest was a right slog. I did like Aleksandar Rakic's performance though. I had him down as a striker but he showed some different tools here. Completely schooled Ledet, I had at least two of the rounds 10-8 for Rakic. Maybe all three. He's not the finished article and you get the feeling there's much better to come from him yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 6 hours ago, wandshogun09 said: Jones took the 205 division to a different level and any version of Shogun wouldn't have lived with him. That's true. But if Shogun had been predated by Jones, Gusty and Rumble his career would have taken a different route and he would have likely never fought Jones. He would have been inclined to fight at 185lbs rather than mix it up with small heavyweights. Or perhaps a 197lbs division could have somehow been made for him, Rashad, Machida and maybe even Anderson. Pride's Middleweight limit was 197lbs up until 2005. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 23, 2018 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 23, 2018 I always felt like Shogun probably should've been at 185. But he left it too late. By the time he really should've considered it (once Jones was ruling at 205), his knees were knackered and he'd have probably had an absolute nightmare cutting the weight because I doubt he's been able to do roadwork or proper cardio training for a good decade. A healthy Shogun at middleweight vs Anderson in around 2007-09 could've been amazing. I'd have leaned towards Anderson but Shogun was close to his peak then, had yet to be ravaged by injuries and he showed in the Machida fights that he was capable of fighting intelligently, following a gameplan and using timing to counter speed and power attacks. It could've been a really special fight back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 I'm not sure why but I have always got the impression that Shogun circa 2009-2010 was operating a shade below the Shogun of 2005-2006. I get your points Wand, and they make a lot of sense. You could very well be correct. However, whether it's due to him being more active (he fought 5 times between Feb 2005 and August 2005), my feelings of nostalgia for Pride, the addition of soccer kicks to his arsenal, or my sense that his body was in a better state back then; I just feel that 2005 was his pinnacle as a fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzExile Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 Rough night for Marc Diakiese. Fought admirably but got outclassed, and frankly twatted around for 15 mins. He came in to the UFC with big hype but you struggle to find an immediate future for him in the organisation now. Maybe he needs to go away and work in a lower calibre organisation for a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted July 25, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted July 25, 2018 Had to take a hit and miss this card but looking at the reports its safe to say Stefan Struve is terrible isnt he? Its almost like hes filled out so much he can barely move. Him and Shogun both need to hang them up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_mole Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Struve is still the youngest guy in the top 15, I think maybe Volkov or Blades but at 30, I would take 2 years and just train striking in Holland with big guys, study your big strikers and learn to use that reach, heal up a bit and maybe come back then. Arlovski, Overeem etc have looked done several times but HW is weird a new camp you can go on 5 fight winning streaks and look a world beater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 25, 2018 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 25, 2018 I like Struve but I just can't see him ever putting it together. It seems like he's hit his ceiling and on top of that he's taken a lot of damage in his career. For a young guy he's taken some abuse and been on the wrong end of some brutal knockouts and punishment. Heavyweight is a funny division, there have been plenty of cases of guys looking done and making another run unexpectedly. I think a combination of the lack of depth in the division and the fact that knockouts are more likely/frequent at heavyweight, you're always just one or two big KOs away from getting back in the mix. But the problem with Struve for me is that I just don't think he has the tools. At least with the Overeem and Arlovski resurgences they had previously been elite. Struve's always been a bit of a gatekeeper. His career highlight will always be knocking out an inexperienced Stipe Miocic. It's something he can always hang his hat on. But he's never really broken through as a contender. He's got a lot of finishes on his record but he's not a big KO artist and he seems to have abandoned his submission game (his biggest weapon). He's got a physical gift with his height and reach that he doesn't exploit and he blocks punches with his face. I just get the feeling that he's too deep in the game and set in his ways now to really change. He's had a lot of fights for a young guy and he's never changed or fixed the holes in his game. Him going away and training solely on his striking/striking defence for a bit doesn't sound like a bad idea. But at this point, even then he probably just gets beat up and reverts back to his instincts. Didn't he train with Semmy Schilt for a bit or have I dreamt that? Sure Schilt even worked his corner in the UFC once or twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted July 26, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted July 26, 2018 Struve should model his style on Schilt, if he could develop a decent front kick he'd be a problem, i know Schilt used that more as a kickboxer but it could still work in MMA. He just doesnt seem to have it pysicially, hes just a big, slow lump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 I obviously don't know the guy, but it seems like one of those situations where he has all the physical tools but just can't be arsed putting in the effort. If he got himself in proper shape, and really worked on making his size an advantage he could be a real force, like you guys say. I think that ship has sailed now though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted July 26, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted July 26, 2018 I dont know if he does have the tools. In terms of size he absolutely does but it just feels like his size hampers any kind of explosive movement. Maybe weight loss would help that? Hes just naturally fucking massive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 26, 2018 Share Posted July 26, 2018 24 minutes ago, Egg Shen said: I dont know if he does have the tools. In terms of size he absolutely does but it just feels like his size hampers any kind of explosive movement. Maybe weight loss would help that? Hes just naturally fucking massive though. He did have the tools, is maybe a better way of putting it. Looking at his earlier fights he's a different animal to what he is now. I think he just didn't have the application. Many guys who are born with the natural tools don't put in the work, and I think that's the case with him. And now he's fucked, because he's taken too much damage and time has passed him by to an extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ColinBollocks Posted July 26, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted July 26, 2018 I think it's telling that Struve resorts back to his bad habits not long after he realises this isn't sparring. I've heard many coaches and experts say that it's really bloody hard to eliminate bad habits, if you've spent a lot of time working that way. The old "everyone has a game plan until they get punched in the face". I just can't be done with the commentary selling us the "he's worked on his stand up and reach advantage" every bloody time his fights start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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