David Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 17 minutes ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said: See I disagree. Is it fair to refuse a company business based on the policies of the country that it resides in? In some ways that would be like refusing to do business with an Australian business due to their illegal immigration policy. However even if your answer is YES to the above, in many ways the sporting company behind this event are the groups you want to support. They've been pushing to minimise gender segregation for years and in fact successfully got laws relaxed allowing men and women to attend the same sporting events later this year / next year. In a nutshell; it's good to support a culture that is progressing. Plus if you want to influence a Middle Eastern culture with Western values, refusing to supply said Western event is not the way to go about it. Your comparison of doing business with an Australian business would apply if said Australian business was financed and backed by an Australian Government that was guilty of numerous human rights violations. If you dig a bit deeper into the origins of this sudden interest by the Saudi Government in sports you'll see that it isn't driven by minimising gender segregation and increasing equality, and is more about PR that allows for a superficial view of Saudi culture overseas, and specifically in the West. For example, while Western media outlets were reporting the news that women would be allowed to attend football matches in three stadiums out of the twenty five in the Kingdom, what was going widely unreported was the stories of women who had attempted to flee from Saudi Arabia due to violence and abuse from their families or husbands, only to be "captured" and returned against their will where they will face what is known as "honor violence". One instance was described by hotel staff in the Philippines where a Saudi female who had run away from her family, telling how two Middle Eastern men who claimed to be her uncles, accompanied by airline security entered her room, and after much screaming and commotion left carrying her with her mouth, hands and feet covered in duct tape before forcing her into a wheelchair and taking her back to a flight to Saudi Arabia. So yeah, like I said, we'll all watch the event so none of us can take any moral high ground, but let's not kid ourselves that this is some sort of move by WWE to support a "culture that is progressing", because that's simply bollocks I'm afraid. They're doing it for the money, plain & simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 Bang on, David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 Was half way through replying and got distracted. In the meantime, Gus and David have responded beautifully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dart Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Only about 2 years ago women weren’t allowed to attend the shows as fans there.  That’s changed now.  Maybe WWE are working with them on it, one step at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Gus Mears Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 54 minutes ago, The Dart said: Only about 2 years ago women weren’t allowed to attend the shows as fans there.  That’s changed now.  Maybe WWE are working with them on it, one step at a time. Call me a cynic, but I'm guessing that Undertaker vs. Rusev in a casket match has less to do with Saudi Arabian liberalisation than the fact that they have a new ruler who understands that the appearance of moderate liberalisation will benefit his regime.  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 Exactly. And let's not kid ourselves here: whilst I daresay there are those in WWE who do feel it would be a better world if Saudi Arabia became less barbaric, ultimately they're not doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, they're doing it for a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 Considering The Rock's been hanging out with Saudi royalty, and talking about visiting soon, do we think they're going to manage to get him on the show in some capacity too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 1 hour ago, The Dart said: Only about 2 years ago women weren’t allowed to attend the shows as fans there.  That’s changed now.  Maybe WWE are working with them on it, one step at a time. What we're seeing happening in Saudi Arabia can only really be described as "controlled social change", and it really isn't anything new when it comes to nations being run by regimes such as that in Saudi. They recognise the benefits of leveraging sports for political gains. I read an interesting article a while ago about the World Cup in Russia, which discussed the history of oppressive regimes using sports to try and win public support both at home and abroad. There was a quote that I liked, and although I can't remember it exactly it went something like "nothing makes an undemocratic and oppressive regime seem progressive and forward-thinking quite like a stadium full of smiling and cheering fans as they enjoy an event featuring athletes from around the world" It's really a case of these regimes looking for international sporting prestige as a way to cover for their authoritarian antics, and this visit from WWE is probably just the beginning as far as Saudi is concerned. Personally, I'll remain sceptical when it comes to their claims, and I'll also remain sceptical when it comes to the aims of any organisation or sporting body who participates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew "the ref" coyne Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Fair enough. Maybe the comparison is extreme. But if you think Australia isnt guilty of "a continuous and objectionable violation of human rights" via there treatment id asylum seekers you are very mistaken. And no Carpool im not being arrogant. Frankly I don't think it is any countries' place to try and influence another culture's values. But ultimately the Middle East will ultimately receive Western influences by being involved from something as major as tourism to something as minor as a wrestling show. I never said WWE was a major influence like you implied... but it is an influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, andrew "the ref" coyne said: Fair enough. Maybe the comparison is extreme. But if you think Australia isnt guilty of "a continuous and objectionable violation of human rights" via there treatment id asylum seekers you are very mistaken. And no Carpool im not being arrogant. Frankly I don't think it is any countries' place to try and influence another culture's values. But ultimately the Middle East will ultimately receive Western influences by being involved from something as major as tourism to something as minor as a wrestling show. I never said WWE was a major influence like you implied... but it is an influence. In the context of what I'd posted, no - it isn't. By that light, almost every refugee-receiving country on the planet, including the UK, is guilty of that. And, horrible though that is, that is more down to how badly Australia implements its policy, than having a specific policy. Saudi's policies, however are objectionable any way you slice them, because by their very definition they abrogate human rights that most of the rest of the world, via themselves and the UN, have already recognised. "Arrogant" may have been a strong word, but it's a bit presumptuous. Especially as the Saudis and the other absolute monarchies of the Gulf have shown themselves to be pretty adept at importing all the luxuries, events, and trappings of Western culture, but very little of the politics and social outlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Weezenal Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 At this rate I'm fully expecting Hogan, Nash and Hall wheeled out as nWo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 New Wahabbi Order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 A while back I was thinking of the whole 'soft power' thing with foreign investors of football teams and competitions and wondered whether we'd get something similar in wrestling. If the offer was high enough, maybe they could buy WWE from the McMahons in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BigJag Posted April 12, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted April 12, 2018 Didn't Abu Dhabi do something similar with UFC? I believe they own 25% of the company. I doubt Vince would want to give up enough of the company in order for the Saudis to find it worthwhile. It'd be interesting if they ever decided to set up their own wrestling company. They've always had international wrestlers touring through that region, in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sphinx Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 I did wonder about setting up their own company but thought WWE have such a wealth of history that investing in them would seem the wiser thing to do. Also rather than just downvote, generate discussion by saying why you disagree (I realise this will get lots of downvotes. Go ahead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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