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UFC 223 is McFucked


wandshogun09

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Yeah mole, I know Punk is known by millions. That wasn't my point. Dana was specifically saying that Askren didn't deserve a place on the roster because he hadn't beaten anyone. The guys he beat in Bellator weren't household names, nobody would claim that. But considering this was around the time the UFC were upping the number of shows and hiring shite like Royston Wee, to say Askren wasn't worthy was complete bollocks. And even if he'd gone to WSOF and beat a Fitch or Shields, I suspect Dana would've moved the goalposts again and said 'yeah, so what he beat Fitch and Shields. Those guys are on the decline and couldn't hang anymore in the UFC. Those wins don't prove anything'. I just think he'd decided they weren't signing him and no win would've been good enough. I'd honestly have rathered Dana just tell the truth and say 'Look, we're not signing Ben Askren because I think he's a Sideshow Bob headed prick and I don't want to deal with him. It is what it is. End of. Next question. Thank you.' The 'he hasn't beat anyone' thing was bollocks because 1) pretty much every top welterweight was already in the UFC. How was he supposed to beat those level guys if he couldn't get in the UFC for shit? And 2) many fighters have been signed with both less wins and shitter wins than Askren's. It was hot shite.

And GSP might well have said he'd fight him. I don't doubt he would. But if Askren wants a one fight deal the UFC aren't going to do it so it doesn't matter what GSP would be up for. He's not just going to come in and get the GSP fight. They'd never do a 'one and done' thing like that unless it was something monstrous. And as you say, Askren hasn't exactly been a big draw. 

I'd actually like to see Askren fight in Bellator again if this retirement doesn't stick and the UFC thing doesn't work out. His problem was with Rebney, wasn't it? I'm sure things would go much smoother with Coker. I still want to see him fight Rory MacDonald. That was the fight, besides GSP and to an extent Hendricks, that was most talked about for him in the UFC with Askren saying he'd fight Rory for free and stuff. I'd still love to see that fight. And it would be a legitimate test against a real top ex UFC guy. 

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Askren wasn't coming in for less than $200,000 most likely, there is 100's of fighters that started at the bottom and some made it up, Askren was basically wanting to start in the top 10 with a boring style, no big wins over a UFC vet and zero footage of his credentials. Lombard & Alvarez both were exciting and had big wins before they were even in Bellator, throw in the court trouble they had with Alvarez and Bjorn Rebney not even wanting to keep the guy makes it all not black and white.

There was a lot of stuff said during that Eddie Alvarez stuff and it was Spike/Bellator and Bjorn Rebney Vs Dana & Lorenzo, they probably didn't want a boring fighter with Bellator ties coming in, WSOF would kind of take the whole we don't even want him stink Rebney put on him off.

Just like WWE wanted nothing to do with AJ Styles when everyone knew how good he was, he still had TNA stink

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32 minutes ago, the_mole said:

Askren wasn't coming in for less than $200,000 most likely, there is 100's of fighters that started at the bottom and some made it up, Askren was basically wanting to start in the top 10 with a boring style, no big wins over a UFC vet and zero footage of his credentials. Lombard & Alvarez both were exciting and had big wins before they were even in Bellator, throw in the court trouble they had with Alvarez and Bjorn Rebney not even wanting to keep the guy makes it all not black and white.

There was a lot of stuff said during that Eddie Alvarez stuff and it was Spike/Bellator and Bjorn Rebney Vs Dana & Lorenzo, they probably didn't want a boring fighter with Bellator ties coming in, WSOF would kind of take the whole we don't even want him stink Rebney put on him off.

Just like WWE wanted nothing to do with AJ Styles when everyone knew how good he was, he still had TNA stink

Well, maybe Dana shouldn't have told Askren there would be a UFC contract waiting for him if & when he got out of his Bellator deal.

You can try and provide flimsy excuses, but the truth is Dana refused to sign Askren because he saw a way to say "fuck you" to Rebney and Bellator, then he got all bent out of shape, as he always does, when Askren called him on it.

Back then Dana considered himself King shit of Shit Mountain, and the fact that a mere pleb would have the audacity to not bow his head and just wait for Uncle Dana to give him the thumbs up really pissed him off.

Askren was a legit top ten welterweight, and he had the amateur credentials to back his shit up.

EDIT: And I agree with Wand, if Dana didn't want to sign him because he was boring or because he simply didn't like him, then fair enough, but just say that. Don't try to be smart by commenting that he still has to prove himself.

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Your putting too much thought into what Dana was thinking, he also didn't get on with Tito but he did business with him because it drew money. He was asked about Askren a few months back and said is he still fighting? He was watching the Wilder fight during one of his PPVs pretty sure he hasn't been keeping up to date on Ben Askren through internet PPVs.

They have matchmakers and owners, Dana is just the face, Lorenzo has done business that Dana didn't want to do and I'm such Endeavor are the same, Joe Silva was doing cartwheels when Hendricks knocked out Fitch as he was the matchmaker and Fitch was boring and killing contenders. Lorenzo & Joe both had huge say on who got hired and fired just like Endeavor & Sean Shelby does now. Dana has never owned the UFC and never will, so he's not the Vince McMahon of the company despite any comparisons. 

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I think Askren will eventually turn up in the UFC. Askren isn't a massive drawing card or anything. However, he might create enough buzz online that the new owners or whoever decide to give him a punt. He is a very good talker and the new owners are desperate for stars . Dana hating him doesn't automatically rule him out. Fighters have done business with the UFC independent of Dana. Tito Ortiz being the best example. Askren has met personally with UFC bigwigs before, with Dana being relegated to a speakerphone. (edit; I know that meeting came to nothing, but I believe that Dana won the argument internally, hence why he wasn't signed)

It's a shame that it's come to this really. A fighter of Askren's ability really should have debuted in the UFC years ago. The last major fighter to completely bypass the UFC was Fedor. With him, it was no great loss that he spent most of his career elsewhere. Pride was the place to be from 2003-2007. The MMA world didn't lose out because he wasn't about to fight Mike Kyle and Paul Buentello in the UFC. It's a bit different with Askren. The UFC has always been the home of the best welterweights in the world. Sure, the odd top 10 welterweight would turn up elsewhere, but the lions share of the premier welterweights have always been in the UFC. Askren could have tangled with his old rival Johny Hendricks when he was in his prime. He could have challenged Robbie Lawler for the title. There is also obviously the GSP fight. The possibilities are pretty much endless. 

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19 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

The last major fighter to completely bypass the UFC was Fedor. With him, it was no great loss that he spent most of his career elsewhere. Pride was the place to be from 2003-2007. The MMA world didn't lose out because he wasn't about to fight Mike Kyle and Paul Buentello in the UFC. 

That's true of about 2003-2006ish.  But we did miss out on Fedor vs Randy in 2007 and Fedor vs Brock in 2009. Those were the fights everyone was talking about back then and they got away. It still annoys me. 

Looking back, I'm glad Fedor was in Pride in that 2003-06 period because we got to see him fight Big Nog and Cro Cop when all 3 were at their best. The only UFC guys I'd have had any interest in seeing Fedor fight from that timeframe would be Arlovski and Sylvia. And that worked out nicely in the end anyway because we got to see those fights in Affliction. Ideally, Fedor would've gone to the UFC in 2007 after beating Mark Hunt though. Then we could've seen the Randy Couture fight and with Arlovski and Sylvia still in the UFC then, we could've still got those fights. Then of course, Brock came in the following year. Fedor vs Brock would've been huge following UFC 100 with Brock at the peak of his powers. Fedor vs Mir could've happened back in 2008-10 as well. Now we're getting it but it's about a decade late, it's better late than never but it's not the same. 

I agree with your overall point though. I do think Dana not liking you isn't quite the cockblocker issue it used to be in the Zuffa era. If the new owners decide to bring in Askren then Dana's pretty much going to have to lump it. 

Anyway, since this is the UFC 223 thread...Namajunas vs Jedrzejczyk 2. How we seeing that going? 

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Aye, fair point.

I was well up for Fedor vs Couture in 2007/2008. I was also salivating over the prospect of Fedor vs Brock in 2009. I can kind overlook those fights not happening in retrospect. As stated, Fedor wasn't going to waste from 2008-2010, He fought, Arlvoski, Timmy, Rogers and Werdum in that period. I would have preferred the Brock fight over all of them, but I was pleased with what I got looking back. Post-Pride, it was really only 2007 that was a bit of a waste for Fedor. The Couture fight was much more interesting than his freakshow fight with Choi. 

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It's almost like the WWF vs WCW invasion angle looking back when you think what could've been when the UFC bought Pride. If they'd managed to get all the top guys under contract then they could've done a massive UFC vs Pride supercard with Randy vs Fedor, Chuck vs Wanderlei, Shogun vs Rampage 2, Penn vs Gomi 2 and of course Kongo vs Zulu. Obviously, the roster wasn't as deep back then so they most likely wouldn't have tied up so many stars on one card, but it's cool to think about. 

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I would love to see Askren in the UFC but a proper run not trying to fight GSP with zero UFC fights, I know he wouldn't fight Woodley as they are mates from College, I do eventually see a 165 and then a 175 division because it makes a lot of sense, 15lbs with that many fighters between 155 & 170 and Woodley or whoever was champion would have to decide what division they want to be in. RDA would be perfect for it, so would Khabib & Tony to be fair both are massive lightweights and that cutting has already hurt Khabib. Woodley wrestled at 165 & Askren at 175 in college I believe but I think Woodleys vulked up since then.

Luke Thomas was saying him & GSP could draw a million buys with Askren shit talking that is ridiculous (I don't thing George has ever sold a full million buys without Brock Leaner headlining), Askren couldn't get a million people to watch him for free in 2013 which was the last time he fought in Bellator and he's been hidden in South East Asia ever since. His verbal skills aren't that great, Sonnen is miles better than him. it's even taken Conor a few years before people caught on at a certain level.

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13 hours ago, the_mole said:

Your putting too much thought into what Dana was thinking, he also didn't get on with Tito but he did business with him because it drew money. He was asked about Askren a few months back and said is he still fighting? He was watching the Wilder fight during one of his PPVs pretty sure he hasn't been keeping up to date on Ben Askren through internet PPVs.

They have matchmakers and owners, Dana is just the face, Lorenzo has done business that Dana didn't want to do and I'm such Endeavor are the same, Joe Silva was doing cartwheels when Hendricks knocked out Fitch as he was the matchmaker and Fitch was boring and killing contenders. Lorenzo & Joe both had huge say on who got hired and fired just like Endeavor & Sean Shelby does now. Dana has never owned the UFC and never will, so he's not the Vince McMahon of the company despite any comparisons. 

I'm not putting too much into it at all, it was a different era back then and the heat between White and Rebney was well-documented. Was Askren a big name? No, of course not. But that's not the reason why Dana didn't sign him. The UFC signed lots of guys who weren't big names, and guys with the credentials that Askren had were always in demand.

The reason Dana not only didn't sign him, but also put him down in the media was because Askren was simply being used as a tool in the shitfest battle of ego's between Dana and Bjorn. Where it got even crazier was when Askren wasn't prepared to simply bow his head and thank Dana for even considering him.

And don't buy Dana's faux ignorance, he knows exactly what Ben Askren is up to. 

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I won't be replying in this thread after this post, as it should be about the top fights at UFC 223, not Dana White & Ben Askren beef which has nothing to do with a great card in UFC 223. 

It wasn't just Rebney & White, Spike had it in for them back then, in the year Askren left, Eddie Alvarez had his long drawn out contract, with Bellator matching the UFC's exact contract, despite putting in PPV points, when they had never ran a PPV. Bellator had debuted on Spike that year (they had the right to air UFC reruns in 2012 but couldn't put an actual promotion on Spike, so Bellator aired on Viacom's MTV 2, they aired UFC reruns that some idiots watched, famously going head to head with Cain Vs JDS just showing their greatest hits on the night they first fought) Spike to be fair did help the UFC become a known name among casuals.

Lorenzo the UFC money man didn't know how deep Bellator would go, who knows they could have spent like WCW under Turner.

Lombard was on big money but had went 1-2 in 2013 under the UFC, funny enough he is now 3-7 with a No Contest for doping, he probably shouldn't be there. 

Askren was a victim of that short war in 2013, so your right it was a pissing contest but it wasn't just Dana & Rebney but The UFC & Bellator/Spike and Askrens style not doing him any favours.

I don't buy Dana following Ben Askren's career in One, firstly One have said they are trying to cater mainly to the people of South East Asia, they signed a handful of great international fighters but now Bibiano Fernandez is the only one still there considered world class. Anyway you have to pay to see the promotion in the west on internet PPV, I really can't see him being arsed about watching him fight. Askrens/One's fight cards had next to nobody in the big MMA sites talking about it, at least after everyone knew it wasn't the next Pride. He retired got a little buzz, then called out GSP and went on Joe Rogan & Ariel Helwanis shows that generated a little more buzz but Dana was asked that question before he was on Rogan's show, so he may not have known what Ben was doing or even still fighting.

 Anyway enough about that shit, if we have too let's move it to the MMA Thread. This should really about things like is Tony's ground game and unorthadox style enough to halt the Khabib train and did Rose take Joanna's confidence away, will she be able to prove she is much better or can Joanna get her confidence back and fix the holes from the last fight.

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11 hours ago, wandshogun09 said:

It's almost like the WWF vs WCW invasion angle looking back when you think what could've been when the UFC bought Pride. If they'd managed to get all the top guys under contract then they could've done a massive UFC vs Pride supercard with Randy vs Fedor, Chuck vs Wanderlei, Shogun vs Rampage 2, Penn vs Gomi 2 and of course Kongo vs Zulu. Obviously, the roster wasn't as deep back then so they most likely wouldn't have tied up so many stars on one card, but it's cool to think about. 

I always wanted something like that as well. The bolded explains why we never got it. 

They did get most of them under contract quite quickly. By the end of 2007, they had Rampage, Herring, Cro Cop, Hendo, Nog, Shogun, and Wanderlei. The problem was that they all joined the UFC at slightly different times, and other circumstances. 

Herring joined the UFC in 2006. I know he had left Pride some time before that, but he was still strongly associated with the promotion when he signed with Zuffa. Herring lost on his debut, which ruined any buzz he had brought with him. Rampage left Pride before they hit serious trouble (I think). Cro Cop left some 6 months later, and they both made their UFC debuts at the same time in February of 2007; some 2 months before Pride sold up shop to the UFC. The wheels were therefore already in motion with those two before the sale. Cro Cop's aura then took a massive knock less than month after the sale. He was of course blitzed by Gonzaga in Manchester. This tied Couture up with Gonzaga for a while. It also denied us of a inter-promotional dream match between Cro Cop and Couture. 

They also wanted to unify the titles. The problem with this was that they committed to Chuck vs Rampage in May; with the winner fighting the recently signed Hendo to unify the belts. They had considered giving Rampage one more fight before facing off against Chuck. There were even rumours that they were going to give Chuck an easy fight as well. Dean Lister's name was even thrown around as a potential opponent for Chuck (that's not a joke). Anyway, the fight happened, andRampage obviously won, which meant he had to fight a fellow Pride mainstay in Hendo later in the year. The MMA world was therefore robbed of a inter-promotional dream match pitting Chuck against Hendo. When you total that up, Rampage, Hendo and Couture were all locked out of inter-promotional battles only two months after the sale. 

We did end up getting Big Nog vs Sylvia, Anderson vs Hendo and Liddell vs Wanderlei within a year of the merger. But if things had gone a little differently, we could have got a series of dream matches throughout 2007 and 2008. They later did Chuck vs Shogun in 2009. However neither entered that bout with the same aura that they had in 2005. Shogun's reputation was in the pits after the Griffin and Coleman fights, and Chuck had just been laid out by Rashad. It was still nice to see them fight, but it would have been even more fun had they fought between 2005 and early 2007 when both were at their best. 

Nature of the game I guess. 

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I was going to say we have had a few false dawns at lightweight, most though BJ Penn would dominate for years, then Frankie beats him, Frankie Edgar & Benson Henderson had too many razor thin decisions to be considered dominant, then Anthony Pettis looked special, his striking looked amazing plus he was able to sub guys, then RDA happened, most thought he probably only loses to Khabib again but will kill everyone else, he then gets beat off Eddie Alvarez, who hadn't looked that great before they fought, then Conor happened, he did his boxing thing now we have two guys who have looked great for years, obviously Conor should be next but I wonder if we can get a long reign from one of these guys, Conor could beat either if he starts catching them with punches but either could hold the title for years with several defenses but will we see that? lightweight has a high turn over rate as has been proven over the years.

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Yeah, I think a lot of that is just down to the depth of the division and how good all the top contenders are. Like if you compared 155's Top 10 ranked fighters to pretty much any other division's Top 10, lightweight probably has more quality than the lot. And it's been pretty consistently the case for a while. There's been times when you could've argued that 170 or even 145 was stronger but 155 has had that consistency of really high quality for the longest time. There's just so many good fighters at lightweight it's ridiculous. Even outside the UFC, at almost any given point over the last decade there's been a healthy handful of legit guys out there. From the days of Melendez and Thomson in Strikeforce to Pettis, Bendo and Cerrone in WEC to Alvarez and Chandler in Bellator to Gaethje in WSOF.

That's a lot of the reason why I think you don't get the long reigns on top. If you look at the top lightweights at nearly any period, you could easily and realistically see them all beating each other on any given day. Where in other divisions you'll often get one fighter who is ahead of the pack like GSP or Mighty Mouse. There's never really been that guy at 155, has there? Most would say BJ Penn but he never had a consistent and sustained run of dominance the way people like to remember it. People think back to his best stretch but that was reqllu only two fights long (vs Florian and Sanchez in 2009), his other blow-away performances (vs Sherk, Stevenson, Gomi etc) were all mixed in with losses or poor performances. If he'd managed to string all these wins together consecutively it'd have been amazing and he'd be rightly remembered as the most dominant lightweight ever. 

This is what makes Khabib vs Ferguson such a fantastic fight as well. Because while we've both just argued the case for lightweight traditionally lacking a long consistent run of wins from the top boys, in this fight you're looking at two men who have actually bucked that trend. Ferguson is on a 10 fight win streak (pretty much unheard of in the 155 shark tank) and of course Khabib's 25-0. And if you look at both of their last bunch of fights, they were as good as championship performances. This is arguably the two most dominant lightweights ever facing off. 

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Aye, in the lightweight division, today's hero is often tomorrow's also-ran. 

Between 2007-2009, Penn beat the following fighters at lightweight: Pulver, Stevenson (won the title), Sherk, Florian and Sanchez. He finished all of them as well. The reason why that 5-fight winning streak gets a bit overlooked, is because Penn got mauled at 170lbs by GSP in the middle of that run. That fight made Penn seem less dominant than he actually was. At lightweight alone, he had no equal until he faced off against Edgar. I would say Penn was as close to dominant as you are going to get at lightweight. He came very close to clearing out the division.

Edgar never dominated because Maynard and Bendo ran him close. That's a shame, because Edgar is arguably the most skilled fighter to date at 155lbs. Bendo's title reign was overshadowed by the dodgy decision in the rematch with Edgar, and a close shave with Gill. Pettis, RDA, McGregor and Eddie had only 2 title defences between them. Ferguson is on a 10 fight winning streak, but he has his day in court in a few weeks. It's hard to see someone as dominant when they are an underdog in their upcoming fight. Khabib needs the title and a defence or two to stamp his dominance on the division. Regardless, whoever comes out of this fight will have a good chance of challenging Penn for most dominant lightweight. 

Breen said on Twitter a week or so ago that lightweight has been the best division in MMA for the past decade. I've loved the middleweight division in recent years, and the featherweight division was a lot of fun during the days of McGregor Aldo, etc. But for competition and talent, lightweight is certainly one of the best divisions in MMA. 

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