UFC on FOX: Emmett vs Stephens - Feb 24

[Egg Shen]

difference is that Covington actually wins his fights though so there's an element of him backing his shit up, Magana is one of the worst fighters to ever fight in the promotion. Im actually interested to see him fight again just to get a feel for the kind of buzz he can generate. The Maia fight was poor but i no one looks good against Demian Maia.

[David]

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Or it means that, just as the actual combat sport evolves, the trash-talking will also evolve, and only those who are any good at it will get any traction.

I'm not talking about who does or doesn't get traction, I'm talking about the amount of fighters we're seeing now how are trying to go down this route because they believe (quite rightly) that it's the only way to make money. My point is that such circumstances will only lead to more fighters trying (and failing) to play the game in this manner.

Covington is one such example.

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Ultimately, I think it's fair to say that we all agree with your point that it should be a meritocracy, that that is very much the ideal, but we've had this debate so many times on this very forum now, and you're not going to convince anyone, and no-one's going to convince you, that this will, or should, happen.

I've found that in the past when I've mentioned this subject people take it as a game of absolutes, where it's either a meritocracy across the board, or nothing. That isn't my point at all though. I'm well aware that those who are good at selling themselves and their fights will always rise to the top as far as earnings go, and why shouldn't they? They make the company a lot of coin and it would be unfair for them not to see their fair share.

What I'm saying is that while these entertaining shit-talkers and needle movers deserve their main event slot, do they really have to be skipped to the front of the title line as well? Why not allow the likes of Nate and Conor to do their thing, and have a legitimate title fight alongside their bout with a deserving challenger facing the champion?

The way of things today seems to be to use the belt as a prop, which is why we're now being bombarded with interim title fights to see who will face the reigning interim champion.

It's been proven that fucking about with the title in that manner doesn't work. It simply devalues the belt, and removes what could be another avenue for fighters who are talented in the cage rather than on the mic to make good money.

And like I said, if we find a guy who's tearing up the rankings and who can chat shit effectively, then great. Lightning in a bottle and all that.

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BUT: it is still a business. If we want to see those legit athletes who can entertain the truly appreciative fans, it needs to make money, or it won't survive. The key to that is drawing in fans, and that is why I say again: if you're looking to blame someone, blame people. People like Coldplay, people voted for Hitler, and people pay to see MMA fights when they think the fighter they like is going to win and say something interesting, or the fighter they hate is going to get pounded into the ground and cry afterwards. People are not to be trusted.

It is still a business, which is why I've made the point that I made. Two avenues, two ways to go about making big fights, two ways of making more stars. Have the shit-talking entertainer alongside the talented fighter who's tearing up the division. If we're honest, McGregor doesn't need any belts to draw fans, does he? All he'd doing is stopping other guys who are less talented on the microphone from making money and accomplishing their goals.

The current state of affairs with titles being held up and numerous interim titles is exactly what I feared would happen. It's a shitstorm, and the UFC have left themselves in a position where both McGregor and GSP have dropped titles and pissed off, leaving the two divisions looking like a joke. There's no legit champion, no stars and no real direction.

It's getting that bad that we're seeing CM fucking Punk being brought back.

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Not necessarily, Covington isn't just talking an insane amounts of shit, he's also 8-1 in one of the deepest divisions in the UFC, he also holds a win over Demian Maia so his #3 ranking is warranted and earned if we follow the UFC ranking system, the shit talking is just on top of it all.

Not quite sure if you got my point, Ebb. I'm meaning that if Covington wasn't a shit-talker, and just had those wins to his name as his bargaining chip for a title fight, how would he get on if, say, Nate Diaz announced that he'd come back but only to fight T-Wood?

He'd be passed over, wouldn't he? But, if he talks shit and acts like a cunt he knows his chances of being passed over are smaller because he's putting himself out there.

Covington is clearly a guy who isn't naturally skilled at talking. He's a moron. He's like the annoying kid at the back of the class making fart-noises. In an ideal world he wouldn't be saying the stuff he does, and he'd be climbing the rankings and letting his fighting do the talking, but he feels like he has to act like a dick to get ahead, which is quite sad really.

My belief is that this current way of running shit that these new owners have will see the company lose a shitload more value in the coming years. They clearly don't have a clue.

[Carbomb]

Like I said, David, for the most part I agree with you, and particularly now more than before. I didn't mean it to come out like I was talking in absolutes, but whenever we have these debates it sounds like you are in the tone of your posts. If not, fair enough - my mistake. But I think there's room between what you perceive is the right way to go about things, and the way things currently are, for a more optimal balance of show and competition. Sometimes people want to see some loudmouth douche whose mouth writes checks he can't cash getting his head stomped in by someone several levels higher than him. 

For me personally, I'd say a reasonable ratio would be about 3 legit ranking fights to 1 freakshow fight. That way everyone could be happy. That said, I'd be more than happy for the UFC to fuck off the Diaz brothers. Their sense of entitlement, at least as they express themselves, as regards fighting is irritating in the extreme.

[wandshogun09]

I've got no problem with what the Diaz brothers are doing. They've pretty much made it clear that unless they're offered something big they're not particularly interested. Which is fair enough. Doesn't mean the UFC have to offer them those big fights/title fights etc. I don't really see Nick or Nate constantly bitching about it, there'll be the odd tweet or TMZ will catch them coming out of a weed cloud and ask them something but that's about it. If their stance is basically 'I'm retired...unless you make me an offer I can't refuse' I don't have any issue with that. It's frustrating because I like to watch them fight but I can't begrudge any fighter who gets in that position and has the luxury of living comfortably without fighting. They can be twats of course, but I haven't seen them moaning about it to any real annoying degree. In fact, aside from Nate sparking up live on FOX the other week, I haven't seen or heard a peep from either of them in ages. 

[jimufctna24]

If Covington's goal is to whip up more interest in his fights, then he has not really succeeded. All he's doing is annoying the average MMA fan and not in a good way. I get Ebb's point, but I see things more from Wand's perspective that he creates the wrong type of heat. I hate to use wrestling terminology, but "X-Pac heat" sums him up perfectly. 

Also, if Miocic and Ngannou can't have much success at the box office with the UFC's promotional machine fully behind them, then what chance has Covington got? In today's climate only 3 or 4 fighters really register with the casual audience. Covington's doesn't have much chance of attracting the masses in any serious way. It's more likely he'll eventually go too far with it, or touch on the wrong subject and end up in serious bother - similar to what happened with Ohara Davies. 

[wandshogun09]

8 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

difference is that Covington actually wins his fights though so there's an element of him backing his shit up, Magana is one of the worst fighters to ever fight in the promotion. Im actually interested to see him fight again just to get a feel for the kind of buzz he can generate. The Maia fight was poor but i no one looks good against Demian Maia.

I get what you're saying but he's still boring as fuck. However we chop it up, he's like if Jared Rosholt watched a load of Chael Sonnen and Conor McGregor interviews and tried to copy it. There's zero buzz there for me because no matter how much shit he talks I know the end result is an absolute snoozer. And it's not just the Maia fight. I don't recall any of his previous UFC fights being any good either. Maybe there was one that was semi-watchable but on the whole he's made for tedious viewing. 

I'm not knocking his success in the cage. Clearly he's got some talent or he wouldn't have such a good win-loss ratio. But there's been a bunch of fighters you could say the same about over the years who were boring to watch and nobody gave a flying fuck about. I'm not going to care about this one just because he acts like a kid in the school holidays with nothing to do but spam goofy shit on forums and twitter. 

And for all his faults, at least Chael used to fight. And he was a master at lining up his next fight whether he won or lost, against name opponents. Whereas this prick talks and talks and talks and tweets and posts dumb shit all over the place and none of it leads to anything. 

Edit - Spot on Jim. He's skilled enough that he warrants a place on the roster. I'll begrudgingly admit that. But all these silly antics do nothing for me but turn me off. And like I say, not in the Frank Mir 'I want to see this guy lose' way. It's in the 'oh it's Colby Covington, wonder if there's anything good in my Sky planner to kill the next 15/25 minutes'. He's not more relevant because of it. He's just more of a cunt. 

[Egg Shen]

1 hour ago, jimufctna24 said:

. Covington's doesn't have much chance of attracting the masses in any serious way. It's more likely he'll eventually go too far with it, or touch on the wrong subject and end up in serious bother - similar to what happened with Ohara Davies. 

I was actually gonna bring up Ohara Davies in my other post. It's a very similar situation, Davies even went as far to get himself fired from Matchroom recently through sheer stupidity. Strangely, there's a pro wrestling link with Davies too, he comes out to the Undertaker theme so id imagine he's a big fan himself. Pro Wrestling is to blame for all of this.

That said, if i see a Ohara Davies video pop up on youtube i usually end up watching it.

[David]

On 02/03/2018 at 3:11 PM, Carbomb said:

Like I said, David, for the most part I agree with you, and particularly now more than before. I didn't mean it to come out like I was talking in absolutes, but whenever we have these debates it sounds like you are in the tone of your posts. If not, fair enough - my mistake. But I think there's room between what you perceive is the right way to go about things, and the way things currently are, for a more optimal balance of show and competition. Sometimes people want to see some loudmouth douche whose mouth writes checks he can't cash getting his head stomped in by someone several levels higher than him. 

For me personally, I'd say a reasonable ratio would be about 3 legit ranking fights to 1 freakshow fight. That way everyone could be happy. That said, I'd be more than happy for the UFC to fuck off the Diaz brothers. Their sense of entitlement, at least as they express themselves, as regards fighting is irritating in the extreme.

Hey, I'm more than happy to see the guys who draw the eyeballs headlining the shows and getting the lions share of the money. As I said, it's well-deserved.

I'm not even that fussed by how many of those types of fights we see on any given card. In fact, In the past I've been an advocate of the UFC providing a platform for some of the older fighters who are nowhere near their best anymore, primarily because it adds an element of interest for casual fans. 

If the UFC announced CM Punk vs Ken Shamrock tomorrow I wouldn't be complaining. Neither guy is making a title run, but throw them in there for an exhibition bout of sorts, a nice little distraction in the middle of a card and it's groovy, as the kids say.

My main point is the titles. That is where the legit, deserving aspect should be applied in my view. If you're tearing it up in your division and winning fights (by any means) then you should be getting your crack at the gold when it's deserved, not when Dana "Julius Caesar" White decides that you're worthy of his thumbs up from the gallery.

We've seen the titles treated as nothing more than props for the money fights of late, and it's essentially fucked up two divisions by my reckoning. 

[wandshogun09]

7 hours ago, David said:

it's groovy, as the kids say.

Said. In about 1988. 

[Carbomb]

6 hours ago, David said:

My main point is the titles. That is where the legit, deserving aspect should be applied in my view. If you're tearing it up in your division and winning fights (by any means) then you should be getting your crack at the gold when it's deserved, not when Dana "Julius Caesar" White decides that you're worthy of his thumbs up from the gallery.

We've seen the titles treated as nothing more than props for the money fights of late, and it's essentially fucked up two divisions by my reckoning. 

You know me, David - I don't like White, I think he's a petulant man-child who lets his pettiness get in the way of his stellar ability as a promoter. Not much of a fan of him or the Fertittas as employers, either. Certainly, I look at the likes of James Vick, Tyron Woodley before he won the belt, or even Demian Maia before he fought Woodley, and I was wondering just what more the UFC expected these guys to do to get the shot at the big one. And I do feel bad for the more boring fighters - the ones who aren't pricks, that is. It often comes across that, as they do better, the UFC gives them a larger number of difficult fights than they would exciting fighters, almost like they're trying to chuck banana skins at the boring ones to de-rail them from getting a title shot, which feels unsporting. I know Jon Fitch is boring as sin, but he came across as an OK bloke, and it seemed like the longer he went, the more desperate the UFC got for him to have just one more loss, just so they'd have an excuse to cut him.

Hark at "Down With The Kids" wandshogun09 with his interwebs and The Snapchat.

[wandshogun09]

6 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Hark at "Down With The Kids" wandshogun09 with his interwebs and The Snapchat.

That's me. 

No seriously, I am useless with that kind of thing. Snaptwat and Whatslap and all that carry on. I'm turning into my dad. The scary thing is, my daughter will get on my wife's phone or tablet and she's swiping away and seems to know what she's doing more than I do. She's fucking 4! How has it come to this? 

On the Fitch thing, I remember his sacking causing quite a stir at the time. In the MMA media in general and I think it caused a big multi page debate on here as well. Dana was still doing his media scrums back then and he went on one of his massive pink faced rants to justify it.

It was a harsh release looking back. After losing his title shot to GSP (in a really good fight, by the way) he went on a 5 fight win streak and then went to a draw with Penn. Granted they were all decisions and none of them particularly entertaining from memory. After that he got KO'd in seconds by Hendricks (I'll never forget how ecstatic Joe Silva looked after that KO, actually hugging Hendricks like a proud mother). He bounced back with a win over Erick Silva, which was Fitch's best fight in years, really great fight that got FOTN. Then got schooled by Maia and got sacked. I know it's a slightly different time but imagine someone now going 6-2-1 over 9 fights and getting let go? There are fighters on the roster with losing records now, for fuck's sake. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

So... what you are saying is... Fitch vs Punk for all the marbles? Right?

[wandshogun09]

Well I don't know who I'd favour but I know who's made me 'Go To Sleep' more over the years. 

[David]

55 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

On the Fitch thing, I remember his sacking causing quite a stir at the time. In the MMA media in general and I think it caused a big multi page debate on here as well. 

About 63.5% of those posts were mines if I recall correctly.

That decision to let the uncrowned King go almost led to me giving up watching MMA for Lent.

Almost.

[jimufctna24]

Fitch got cut twice.

He got cut for good after the Hendricks loss. Dana also fired him in late 2008. because he and other AKA fighters were hesitant to sign a contract that allowed the UFC to use their likeness in the video game. In the end, Lorenzo intervened, and Fitch agreed to sign the contract. Dana probably never forgave him for that episode.