UFC 220: Miocic vs Ngannou

[jimufctna24]

Aye. 

Right now, I think Cain at his peak would beat the Miocic of today, but that's off-set with Miocic having the better resume (as Wand laid out in detail above). Therefore, I rank then about even in the all-time stakes - joint 2nd behind Fedor. If Miocic meets and beats Cain next - which he could very well do - then that would put Miocic above Cain outright. While Cain would perhaps not be at his peak, it would still strengthen Miocic's career average and in turn lower Cain's career average. 

Miocic might end up surpassing Cain anyway. Another win over Werdum might strengthen his resume to a point where it outweighs how impressive Cain was at his peak - if you catch my drift. 

[ColinBollocks]

Good post, wand.

Rogan's logic was well clunky and it bothered me too. Cain is in the discussion, of course, but even by ropey MMA math, you must be remembering some fights incorrectly if you think it gives Cain an edge. Rogan clearly has a warm fuzzy place in his heart for Cain, going by how hard he was cheerleading for Cain even during the fight, but it's hard to give him the nod, these days.

 

[wandshogun09]

You can definitely tell Cain is one of his favourites. I'll never forget how biased he was commentating on the second Cain vs JDS fight. Now, Cain was wrecking JDS. So of course, the commentators could only call what was happening. And a serious arse kicking was happening. Fair enough. But there's a difference between saying what you see and what Rogan was doing that night. There seemed to be a disturbing amount of satisfaction he was getting from seeing Cain smashing JDS to bits that night, or to use your description, cheerleading. And I can only chalk it up to him feeling vindicated after previously proclaiming Cain almost god-like only to be made to feel silly when JDS KO'd Cain in their first fight. I haven't seen the second fight in years but I can still remember Rogan at various points going 'now this is the REAL Cain Velasquez. He's DESTROYING Junior Dos Santos' and stuff like that. Doesn't sound much but it was the way he was clearly pitching a tent in his pants as he was watching it that bothered me. It was like Cain bossing that fight was as much a revenge thing for Rogan as it was for Cain. 

The thing is, I am a fan of Cain. None of these posts are meant as a knock on him. And if he fights Stipe I'll probably root for Cain as I like him more and it'd be cool to see him come back and reclaim the title. Plus then we've got TWO in-form monsters on top of the division. But facts are facts. Stipe has overtaken him. 

[ColinBollocks]

In fairness to Rogan, he's a lot better these days. This was the first card in a while where I've felt his analysis was hampered by his favourites. He used to be terrible with that, but he's a lot more even with his analysis.

Changing the topic, what do you think is next for Ngannou? Realistically, I think most in the division aren't surviving that 3 minute blitz, but clearly if you are a good wrestler you're going to fancy your chances now. A shame Werdum is probably fighting Stipe next, because I'd love to see Ngannou v Werdum.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah. I think Rogan's been a lot better since they've gone to the 3 man team. I think having a fighter in the booth like Cormier or Cruz keeps him in check a bit more and he's less likely to go overboard with the bias.

I can see Ngannou being matched up with someone like Alexey Oleynik next. A solid fighter but a step down. Then again, given Ngannou's clear deficiencies in the grappling they mightn't want to risk putting him with a grappling gorilla like Oleynik just yet. There's a fight between the Black Beast and Marcin Tybura in February, maybe one of those two makes sense. A fight with Alexander Volkov on a European card could be fun but not sure they'll do that because Volkov's on a 5 fight winning streak. There's a few decent options. 

[jimufctna24]

I don't think they will stick Ngannou on a European card. I still think the UFC will promote him quite heavily. In addition to his marketability, which obviously took a knock last night, Ngannou spends a lot of time at the UFC's performance institute. I have read a few reports saying he practically lives there. The better Ngannou does, the better advert it is for the performance institute. Of course, the UFC's backing only goes so far. The UFC really wanted Phil Baroni to be their poster boy in the mid-00's, but he lost too often for that to happen properly,

Black Beast would be an ideal match-up for Ngannou, especially since Lewis took a shot at Ngannou's cardio on social media last night. I'm not sure what JDS's current status is, but they could also perhaps try and re-arrange a fight between him and Ngannou. On paper, JDS is a favourable match-up for Ngannou in his current form. I would be up for either. 

 

[Guy Bifkin]

For all the training montages and hype around the UFC performance institute, Francis gassed after 2 minutes. I'm very pleased for Stipe. He's a really underrated fighter and I'm glad to see him getting a bit of credit after this one. Well played for taking the belt off the increasingly repugnant Dana White and giving it to his coaching team to present.

I was actually thinking after 4 rounds of relentless ground and pound what a brilliant matchup it would be with Cormier so I'm with the UFC if they decide to go that route. There isn't much for either outside of Cain/Jones.

That Abdul Razak fella was the highlight of this card for me. An absolutely brutal uppercut finish - as impressive as Ngannou's against the Reem. 

[David]

I thought Ngannou's ground game was nothing short of ridiculous. Unless he dedicates an insane amount of time to improving in that area he's never really going to be more than a big power guy who can rattle your skull in the first few rounds.

No wrestling, no real takedown defence to speak of, and questionable cardio. His insane power is really all that will keep him hovering around the top five of a poor division I think.

[ColinBollocks]

David! How do?

Rogan said on last nights MMA Show that he heard after the fight, from those at the Performance Center, that Ngannou doesn't train wrestling at all because "he doesn't like it". Apparently all striking, all day. Maybe occasionally he'll role, but it sounds like his wrestling training is nearly non-existent.

[David]

2 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

David! How do?

Rogan said on last nights MMA Show that he heard after the fight, from those at the Performance Center, that Ngannou doesn't train wrestling at all because "he doesn't like it". Apparently all striking, all day. Maybe occasionally he'll role, but it sounds like his wrestling training is nearly non-existent.

Not too bad at all Colin, thanks for asking.

Yeah, I'm sure I'd read that before about Ngannou as well. I guess he's always going to be dangerous due to his power, and he'll win his fair share that way, but you'd think he'd at least train takedown defence of some sort?

[jimufctna24]

The UFC heavyweight division has been much worse. The dark days of 2004-2006 still haunt a lot of fans. Today's UFC heavyweight roster features a wealth of exciting heavyweights; Miocic, Cain, JDS, Overeem, Werdum, Barnett, Hunt, etc. If all of these were competing against one another in their pomps, then heavyweight would probably be the most exciting division of them all, and maybe even on par with Pride's heavyweight division of the mid-00's.

The problem is that JDS is shopworn, Cain's career has been savaged by injuries, and Werdum is over 40. The latter might be as good as ever, or at least close to it, but he clearly hasn't got long left. Overeem is still near his pomp, but I am not sure I consider him an elite level heavyweight. I think he is in the tier below. Barnett just got popped for PED's, and Hunt isn't a serous contender at this time. 

There's still the prospect of Miocic vs Werdum 2 or Miocic vs Cain; both of which would be great match-ups. So,It isn't all doom and gloom at the top-end. I have also heard some good things about Curtis Blaydes; so perhaps another serious player could soon emerge.

Oh, and welcome back David. 

[Carbomb]

Hey there, David. Welcome back.

I don't get why a guy like Ngannou, who's been through all he has, wouldn't take his training seriously when he knows what's involved in getting to where he wants to be. He should know better than most. We all have to do things we don't like, and I find it bizarre that an MMA fighter in the modern game feels he can get away with missing out an important part of his game that I'm sure his coach is telling him he needs to fix, just because he doesn't fancy it.

Here's hoping this defeat has given him a kick up the arse (or a thumb, as it's wrestling).

[ColinBollocks]

Rogan reckons it's his trainers than need to have a word with themselves, after all they're supposed to be coaching him. Ngannou is always going to train what he likes, given the choice, so his trainers need to grab him and get him on the mat.

Also, I don't think his cardio is a complete joke. It was an issue during the fight, but I feel it was mostly down to his efficiency during the fight. The first 3 minutes he gave Stipe everything (and it was a fair pace he was putting on), but Stipe being so good meant Ngannou missed more than he landed. Rogan and co also pointed out a few times how zapping his ground game escapes were; in lieu of technique, he had to be explosive with all his might, while he had the considered weight of Stipe on him. If you're going to have a 5 round fight, it was probably about the worst way to go about it, particularly if you're a massive HW like Ngannou. 

Granted, I don't think many men walk way from those opening 3 minutes without thudding to the canvas, but Stipe did. If he was more selective with his output, he's have had more to give after the first round.

[wandshogun09]

Rogan jumps off bandwagons faster than anyone, doesn't he? He was all up Ngannou's arse before Saturday night. Just like McGregor was definitely going to KO Mayweather as soon as he so much as touched him with that left hand...until it didn't happen then Rogan knew all the reasons why it was silly to think it'd ever happen. And then there was Ronda Rousey. Who was a "ONCE IN A LIFETIME" who made Rogan get all emotional every time he spoke about her. Then she got battered and Rogan says she believed her own hype. After being a huge part of the said hype himself. Rogan's everyone's biggest fan. Until they lose, then he's not. I like him on the whole but he's the biggest Monday morning expert in the game. So easy to have all the answers when they've been answered. 

Ngannou is still the shit. If what we're hearing is correct then just think about that for a second. If we believe Rogan's sources then Ngannou did everything wrong in prep for this fight. Didn't bother training wrestling. Came in thinking he was just going to knock Miocic down like he has everyone else. Add to that he'd never been 5 rounds before and was in with the best heavyweight we've seen in years. And he still took Stipe the distance. Which is more than can be said for Werdum, JDS, Overeem, Hunt and Arlovski.

There's still hope for Ngannou. It's an ageing division. Heavyweights traditionally have longer shelf lives so Ngannou at 31 could have a decade in him yet. We have to remember as well, MMA is still relatively new to him. He's only been training a few years, had his debut fight in 2013. It depends what he does from here. If he stubbornly continues to think he can get by just relying on his power then, like David says, he'll still win more than he loses just because he's so fucking powerful, but there'll be a much lower ceiling on his potential. If he's got any sense whatsoever though, this loss will have served as a big wake up call to him and he'll get serious about grappling training. Even if it's purely defensive grappling he focuses on, I think it'll take him a long way. He's clearly got the ability to learn if he sets his mind to it as his strides from just a big homeless bloke to MMA phenom have shown. People remember Cro Cop's awesome takedown defence but he didn't just have it from day one. Wandy was taking him down fairly easily in their first fight in 2002. I think Takada had some success against him as well in their terrible fight. I think that opened up Mirko's eyes to what he needed to do if he wanted to make the switch full-time from K-1 to Pride. And within a year or so he had that shit down. Obviously I'm not expecting Ngannou to pick it up like Mirko did, and it's a different time now, but he can only improve if he gets on it. 

We'll see what happens. 

[Egg Shen]

Massively disappointed with Ngannou. I had a feeling he'd be exposed during this fight and wouldn't live up too billing but it was worse than i could have imagined. There's absolutely no doubt that he's a dangerous man with some freakish KO power but given the hype lumped on him and the ridiculous claims in the build up you'd think you were witnessing the second coming and some kind of Mike Tyson-esque fighter but in an MMA setting. I can't fault the UFC for trying it on, its a dangerous game to play in heavyweight MMA because fights do tend to be a coin flip, but Ngannou was exposed for being a bit of a fraud. For a round (which was tremendous) it all seemed justified, Ngannou in full swing is a scary proposition but from round 2 onwards he had nothing. It was a little sad to watch.

Heavyweight MMA is one of the rare divisions/leagues in sport where the actual best fighter/competitor can a lot of the time end up losing, there's so little room for error that sometimes a far superior skilled fighter can end up face down on the mat, it's for that reason that a guy like Ngannou or someone like Derrick Lewis can climb to the very top of the sport, there are exceptions though where actual quality shines through, Saturday night was a prime example.

Joe Rogan may have topped himself for spouting bullshit hyperbole going into this one though. Claims like "this is a one in a million athlete" are quite laughable in hindsight, the best being "this man used to dig sand!" which was baffling, i think Rogan was trying to expand on the Ngannou is similar to Conan the Barbarian spiel he was spewing on his podcast. I was quite pleased to see it all thrown back in his face. Rogan even tried to defend Ngannou late on in the fight by claming "how much can you really learn in 5 years" with regards to Ngannou's short comings, but i ain't buying that, Ngannou may be a relative novice but for someone to have little to no idea on how to get off the floor using any sense of technique or understanding is inexcusable at this level. Going off comments post-fight it does make you wonder if Ngannou's camp were so bought up in the hype themselves that they believed it really is a case of Ngannou just having to land to win. In both the main and co-main events for this show this theory was proven to be risky way of appraoching the game.