Montreal - 20 years

[Daaaaaad!]

We discussed this at length a week or two ago on our podcast, but ultimately I think the only credible reason why people might think that it was a work is that things pretty much built to Bret getting screwed in storyline as well as in real life. There's a lot of slightly odd coincidences there that I think people want to read a lot more into and I can see why people looking back might think 'well actually...' but realistically, with the context of the time and what actually happened, it's more wishful thinking on the part of conspiracy theorists.

[King Pitcos]

The maddest part of it is that WCW never capitalised on it at all. Bret went there having not really been beaten for the WWF title, so he was in a stronger position for them than he would've been if he'd lost it to Shamrock on Raw or whatever half-arsed idea he was up for doing without crying. And his newfound hatred of conspiracies should've lined up well against the nWo.

[tiger_rick]

35 minutes ago, King Pitcos said:

The maddest part of it is that WCW never capitalised on it at all. Bret went there having not really been beaten for the WWF title, so he was in a stronger position for them than he would've been if he'd lost it to Shamrock on Raw or whatever half-arsed idea he was up for doing without crying. And his newfound hatred of conspiracies should've lined up well against the nWo.

Great to point this out again. Just utter madness. We know WCW couldn't make a star other than Goldberg in those last three years but their inability to make anything of one Vince had already made is even scarier given it was their entire MO for the previous two years.

[NoUseforaUsername]

I think it's a bit unfair to take the piss out of Bret all the time for "taking himself too seriously" and being a "mark for himself" while almost giving Shawn a pass.

Bret would've had no problem doing the job to Shawn if Shawn would've had a bit more respect, not just for Bret, but for the entire locker room; Bret wasn't just taking a stand for himself, he was taking a stand on behalf of everybody.

This is the same twat (Shawn) who - off the top of my head - visibly threw hissyfits in matches against Razor Ramon, Vader and Sid; deliberately tried to make his opponent (Diesel) look foolish, at WrestleMania, no less; and, outright refused to do business with guys like Dean Douglas and Bret again, at different points.

When he wasn't dictating his own business, he was sticking his oar in elsewhere, manipulating a backstage fight between Diesel and Carl Ouellet; a bullying tactic Kevin put to good use when he engineered a scuffle between Goldberg and Jericho.

Now this is all in a two year period, and he arguably got worse after Montreal, attempting to cry off a second consecutive WM main event and trying to sabotage Rock's push building up to the one after that.

Then he "finds God" and uses that as a crutch to defend and excuse all the shit he put everyone through over the last decade, but did he ever really change?

He continued to basically dictate his own terms, deciding he would be a face for the rest of his tenure, because apparently portraying a fictional heel character is at odds with his born-again-Christianity.

Fair enough, but his behavior during the fall of 2005 begged the question did he ever truly learn anything when he sabotaged a match with Hulk Hogan because of his precious ego and then changed the result of the match with Chris Masters at Unforgiven to a Michaels win - something Masters struggled to recover from.

2004 and 2007, also, in particular, smacked of Michaels using his friendship with HHH to secure a role at the top of the card and hog the limelight that other, younger, wrestlers were more deserving of.

Yes, Bret takes himself too seriously, but let's not pretend he's anywhere near Michaels' level.

[King Pitcos]

1 hour ago, NoUseforaUsername said:

I think it's a bit unfair to take the piss out of Bret all the time for "taking himself too seriously" and being a "mark for himself" while almost giving Shawn a pass.

 

Nobody gives Shawn Michaels a pass, do they? Everyone admits he was a dickhead, so there's not really anything to discuss there. HBK wore his cunt on his sleeve and everyone hated him. Bret just did in a ridiculous snidey way, where he acted the crybaby prick all the time but hid it behind nonsense like "I'm a national hero!" and "I'm doing this for all the boys" and "Sgt Slaughter's third wife's cousin came backstage and told me he would kill himself if his hero Bret Hart lost clean."

The two of them sort of lucked into top spots because society decided steroids were bad, the company went into the shitter with them in main events, and they were very insecure as a result of these things.

[garynysmon]

35 minutes ago, King Pitcos said:

The two of them sort of lucked into top spots because society decided steroids were bad, the company went into the shitter with them in main events, and they were very insecure as a result of these things.

As much as I love Bret, there's a lot of truth in this statement tbh.

I'm very much on team Bret, mainly due to Shawn Michaels being a such a cunt at the time and I find it easier to believe Bret's version of events on most everything. However, there is a tendency in Bret's book to finish every chapter with "needless to say, I had the last laugh."

WCW fucked up Bret's run so much that it makes one wonder if it was deliberate career sabotage. They had wrestling's biggest babyface on their hands. The WWF did a better show of it, early on anyway, with Owen's 'Black Hart' stuff. It all petered out though.

 

[tiger_rick]

Watched a lovely little match between Bret and Shawn on their collection on the Network. It's from Feb 1990. It starts with Anvil blowing a spot, the hand Bret's glasses to a fan at ringside spot.

They open with a tie up and a lovely series of believable reversals. They work from behind until Bret catches Shawn, hits him with a fantastic atomic drop and then a brutal clothesline. Shawn comes back with a sweet dropkick but goes to the top and gets caught by Bret playing possum and thrown off the ropes Ric Flair style.

Shawn works back and catches Bret this time, hitting a good bodyslam and a leg drop. Following a collision, they both try a suplex, ending up in the ropes. Bret's still trying for the suplex when he should be breaking which annoys Shawn who pushes him and gets a fist in the side of his head for his trouble. They both sell the growing anger brilliantly and it's too much for Martywho punches Bret and then it all breaks down. A nice little TV main to showcase both guys with no one losing face.

The only surprise to me with modern eyes was that Jack Tunney didn't appear on the big screen and announce "This match is now a tag team match, playa."

[the_mole]

3 hours ago, tiger_rick said:

Great to point this out again. Just utter madness. We know WCW couldn't make a star other than Goldberg in those last three years but their inability to make anything of one Vince had already made is even scarier given it was their entire MO for the previous two years.

I know wrestling was hot as fuck back then but they started doing weekly 3 hour Nitro's and Two hour Thunders at the start of 98, that had to be a massive strain on the bookers (besides Nash did they even add any new guys. The WWF was also getting more popular, so they were basically just trying to stay on top of the ratings, instead of making money and selling PPVs.

[SpursRiot2012]

In one of Nash's shoots he mentioned it was a complete head fuck booking WCW because not only did you have to do three hours of Nitro in a booking meeting you also had to book the following Thunder and Nitro, as Thunder was taped. 

[CTXRussomark]

I remember seeing that and thinking Nash was talking bollocks until I looked it up - I had no recollection of them taping Thunder in the way he described.  I remembered it being live, then becoming taped on it's own, then eventually being taped after Nitro, but I didn't remember the two week tapings at all.  It does sound like it would be a total headache, and is probably another reason why Thunder became such a nothing show at that point in time.  Pretty safe to assume booking Stevie Ray vs Kendal Windham for two weeks time isn't going to fuck with your Nitro plans for next week.

[jonnybgoode82]

What would a WCW brand split in early-1998 have looked like?

[Carbomb]

37 minutes ago, jonnybgoode82 said:

What would a WCW brand split in early-1998 have looked like?

We got a glimpse of it with the nWo-brand PPVs, I guess. Not full-on split, but I guess they would've done it along faction lines rather than programming.

[Jazzy G]

Was it WCW deliberately sabotaging Bret's run, or was it Nash/Hogan/Hall using their creative control to derail it? The talent in that roster at the time would have made for such a good run for Bret with the belt had he not turned up halfway through the nWo stuff. Benoit, Naitch, Eddie, Jericho, Hennig, Malenko, Saturn, Sting, DDP, Savage? So many potential great matches either through him being in there with some great workers, "marquee names" or both. Unfortunately he just ended up getting lost in the shuffle. Should have stuck the US belt or TV Title on him and watched him elevate it. Keep him away from "the boys" and let him do his own thing, although there'd always be that danger that once it started getting attention it'd have been shat upon by the creative control clauses that Bischoff seemed to be handing out to all & sundry..

[HarmonicGenerator]

Of all the people that jumped, I can still never quite place Bret Hart in WCW. It just feels wrong seeing him in that promotion, like he just doesn't fit. Even more so than people like Hogan and Savage, to me Bret and WWF are completely linked and he just doesn't make sense to me otherwise. I think even if he'd been treated well and given great opponents, it still would have felt like he's somewhere he's not supposed to be.

[ColinBollocks]

6 hours ago, jonnybgoode82 said:

What would a WCW brand split in early-1998 have looked like?

Thunder was apparently going to be a separate brand, but they couldn't be arsed in the end. Coincidentally, Bret Hart was signed to be Thunder talent, according to Bischoff.