UFC on FOX: Lawler vs Dos Anjos - Dec 16

[wandshogun09]

I still think the PED accusations against RDA were a load of unfounded shite myself. I didn't see these drastic physique changes people were banging on about at all. Most of that stemmed from side by side pictures of him clearly out of camp compared to fight week pictures. You could do that with almost any fighter and they'd look a lot different. Performance wise he'd been a lot better than people were giving him credit for for a good while. He rose to the occasion in 2014/15 but he'd been quietly kicking arse for a good 2 or 3 years before that. The PED stuff with RDA was flimsy as fuck. The worst kind of baseless witch hunty bollocks that seemed to be partly to explain away his success which nobody forecasted and I'd say you can place a lot of it at Joe Rogan and Brendan Schaub's doors. They planted a lot of that suspicion on Rogan's podcast by repeatedly speculating why RDA was suddenly being so successful (although as I've said, RDA's rise through the ranks wasn't really all that sudden at all) and nodding and winking that he was juiced. Despite him never ever failing a test or there even being a hint of a problem with him being tested. It really rubs me the wrong way how it's only certain fighters (usually Brazilian) who get tarred with the cheater brush with absolutely no evidence. You didn't see people speculating that Conor McGregor was using PEDs when he was KOing Aldo dead in seconds. Or Miocic when he started blasting through top heavyweights in a round. But RDA, Aldo, Barao etc always got shit for it. RDA grafted his balls off to get to the position to fight for the title. He was never 'the guy' the UFC wanted in that position so he had to do it the hard way and work his way from the bottom rung of the ladder to the top. He got zero favours along the way. He deserved every bit of praise for that title win. And instead you get twats like Beavis Rogan and Butthead Schaub trying to minimise and cast doubt on his accomplishment, while verbally rimming McGregor's arse out no matter what latest moronic scandal he's gotten himself into. 

Not a knock on you Colin. I know it wasn't the point you were making. But that PED stuff with RDA always annoyed me. If he fails a test, or looks like Yoel Romero all of a sudden, fine, have at it. But as far as I can see there's nothing more suspicious about him than anyone else at the top of the game. 

[ColinBollocks]

Fair enough. It is all speculative, that cannot be denied, but I've always been of the opinion it's fair to be somewhat suspicious, particularly when the sport was rife with PED usage. Of course, out right calling him a cheater, despite never being caught is clumsy and daft. Cheating the old test was hardly difficult, if you had a clue and RDA's sudden dip in form was interesting, considering. HOWEVER, it's fairly obvious he just couldn't make the weight and be the best version of himself. Post-Khabib RDA made an attempt to put on some mass, which worked in his favour for a year, but eventually his body just couldn't handle that often overlooked daunting "champions schedule".

Overall, I'm pleased one of my favourite fighters to watch is looking good again. Also, it once again exposes the eventual long term folly of weight cutting.

[wandshogun09]

Weight cutting was definitely a major factor. Weren't there reports that he nearly died making the weight for the Alvarez fight or something mad? Didn't he pass out for a fairly significant amount of time or something? That's scary as fuck and even more scary that not only did his team still allow him to fight after that, he continued on and cut the weight again to fight at 155 for his next fight. It's goofy and stupid and I'm glad he's not doing that anymore. He said himself after the Magny win, something like 'I can't make 155 anymore. I want to see my kids grow up'. It really is that severe for some of these guys and I'm amazed they take the gamble fight in and fight out. I don't even get the 'trying to get an edge' argument by really either because whatever size advantage there is surely it's cancelled out by nearly killing themselves to actually make the weight. The extra pounds you have on your opponent mean nothing if you enter the cage like a Reebok clad zombie. 

Also, I think rather than look at it as RDA dipping in form, I think a lot of it should be credited to Alvarez and Ferguson being so good as well. That lightweight division is a real shark pool. I can't see anyone having a long reign at the top with that kind of depth. You look at the top of that weight class - McGregor, Ferguson, Khabib, Barboza, Alvarez, Gaethje etc and you could see any of them beating each other on a good day. Even below that you've got Lee, Poirier, Diaz, Pettis, Johnson etc. 

RDA's losses got a lot of play because they were back-to-back and after he'd been on a tear. But they were to Alvarez and Ferguson, who are top guys, and after draining himself dry to make weight. And even then the Ferguson fight was pretty fucking close. His 'decline' was overplayed IMO. 

[ColinBollocks]

12 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

RDA's losses got a lot of play because they were back-to-back and after he'd been on a tear. But they were to Alvarez and Ferguson, who are top guys, and after draining himself dry to make weight. And even then the Ferguson fight was pretty fucking close. His 'decline' was overplayed IMO. 

Again, fair points, wand. I guess it depends on how you view his performances. I've made my feelings on Ferguson known, but the shine came off Alvarez when McGregor destroyed him, rightly or wrongly. IDK, I just think a lot of people expected that prime RDA to run through anyone, such was his previous victories - legitimately for a time it looked like he had no weaknesses. To be such an outlier and to lose two on the bounce like that it does cause people to evaluate things differently, again, rightly or wrongly. I think if his weight cutting was hindering him so much, then he couldn't help but not be his very best, which is a dip because at his very best is besting most UFC fighters (IMO). Dip or not, it can't be called into question his decision to move up a weight class.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah I think it's bits of what we're both saying. 

Either way I like the timing of this fight. I think they're both in a good place now. I wouldn't have liked this as Lawler's first fight back after that year out. But now he's got back in there and knocked the cobwebs off in a good, hard 3 round dust up vs Cowboy. And likewise with RDA, I wouldn't have chucked him in with Lawler for his first fight at 170 but he's found his feet at the weight now and looked fantastic against Magny.

It really is the perfect fight. I honestly hadn't even considered these two fighting until I think someone on here suggested it after their last fights. As soon as I heard it it was all I wanted to see. I'd have been gutted if they'd gone with anything else. 

[jimufctna24]

We live in cynical times when it comes to PED use in MMA. When it comes to suspected drug cheats in MMA, where there is smoke there is usually fire. It was a walking punchline on MMA messages boards for years that Overeem was on the gas. He eventually tested positive in early 2012 - although he disputed that he used anything untoward purposely. Sean Sherk was another who eventually tested positive after prior speculation. Both Overeem and Sherk were easy targets. They looked like stereotypical steroid users. To add to the hysteria, some atypical suspects have been busted. The most notable being Royce Gracie in 2007, Kirill Sidelnikov in 2009 and Anderson Silva in 2015/2017. These fighters being caught doesn't really take the heat away from the more likely suspects, it just increases the suspicion that MMA is generally a dirty sport. The general sentiment being something like - "If a fighter doesn't look like he's on the gas, he still might be. If he looks like he's on the gas, he most certainly is". 

Due to all this. RDA became a bit of a scapegoat. Personally, I thought it was unfair. I agree with Wand that the evidence was flimsy; the photos, Rogan/Schuab, etc. Another thing to add is that while the Texas commission didn't take blood samples, or do any out of competition in the build up to UFC 186, USADA was testing when RDA faced Cerrone later in year. RDA was randomly tested 4 times in the 4 months leading up to that fight. Cerrone stated on fight week that he expected RDA to be hindered by the testing - so he should be thrown in with Rogan/Schuab. The upshot was that RDA ripped through Cerrone with relative ease. Now, I am not going to say beyond doubt that RDA has always been a clean fighter. Again, cynical times. But I don't think he deserved the scrutiny he received. 

[wandshogun09]

Yeah that's my point. I'm not saying for certain that he's never dabbled. None of us know for sure and so many fighters have been popped, some who I'd never have suspected, that there's very few who'd shock me now. But I never got why RDA got so much of it when nearly everyone else skated by. Especially non-Brazilians. 

I forgot about Cerrone. He was talking all kinds of shite before that second RDA fight. Think he was even posting those silly and carefully selected side by side comparison pictures himself. Must admit it was satisfying as fuck seeing RDA steamroll him in a minute after passing every test USADA threw at him.

The thing with the Pettis fight and lack of testing was bollocks as well. People talk like it was only RDA that wasn't tested for that card, but none of the fighters on there were. Proven juicer Overeem was on that card and handily beat Roy Nelson. Johny Hendricks was on the card and dominated Matt Brown. That was pretty much the last time Hendricks looked like Hendricks funnily enough...on a card when there was no testing. Coincidence? But nobody was speculating on those two. It was all about how RDA must be gassed to beat Pettis how he did. And oh look, here's a picture of RDA looking soft out of camp next to a picture of him shredded at a weigh in to prove he's a filthy Brazilian animal (Colby Covington TM). 

[Cousin Jim Bob]

Its not nice to say but how many all time great Brazilian MMA fighters have we seen fail drug tests ?

I have no trouble with questions being asked. Brazilian MMA cheating must have been bordering on Russian Olympic teams over the last 20 years. 

Even forum faves like JDS and Anderson Silva proved dirty.

[Egg Shen]

i think people always had an issue with Dos Anjos slow build to the top. His rise was similar to Bispings in that for a long time he was seen as a good fighter but would always be middle of the pack. The fact that he got to the top on spectacular fashion lead people to ask questions...the subsequent losses made people question it further and there was a feeling that order had been restored. The guys on a fucking role again though and deserves to be recognised as one of the best Brazilian fighters ever.

[wandshogun09]

JimBob- True but there's also shitloads of Brazilian fighters who have never pissed dirty and they get lumped in unfairly. JDS, Anderson and Belfort being dirty is nothing to do with RDA or whoever else just because they're all Brazilian. Same as Jon Jones, Frank Mir and Josh Barnett being raving juiceheads doesn't mean, say, Stipe Miocic is a needle arser just because they're all American. Something about the whole thing just irritates me. 

Saying that, has there been a high profile case of a UK fighter failing a test yet? I've got a feeling I'm overlooking something obvious but no names are jumping out. 

[Egg Shen]

same, cant think one off the top of my head. Im sure there were some rampant steroid abusers during the ol' Cage Rage days though.

[Cousin Jim Bob]

15 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

JimBob- True but there's also shitloads of Brazilian fighters who have never pissed dirty and they get lumped in unfairly. JDS, Anderson and Belfort being dirty is nothing to do with RDA or whoever else just because they're all Brazilian. Same as Jon Jones, Frank Mir and Josh Barnett being raving juiceheads doesn't mean, say, Stipe Miocic is a needle arser just because they're all American. Something about the whole thing just irritates me. 

Saying that, has there been a high profile case of a UK fighter failing a test yet? I've got a feeling I'm overlooking something obvious but no names are jumping out. 

My problem Wand is almost every all time great Brazilian fighter has failed or run from a test at some point now. I think its fair to ask huge questions of any Brazilian MMA fighters or Gyms who suddenly see huge success. Guilty by association might seem unfair but when their whole system seem dodgy its pertinent. 

[wandshogun09]

7 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

Im sure there were some rampant steroid abusers during the ol' Cage Rage days though.

Probably, but Cage Rage flew a lot of American, Brazilian and Japanese fighters over as well. I'd be interested to know how many UK fighters have been popped for something over the years. 

7 hours ago, Cousin Jim Bob said:

My problem Wand is almost every all time great Brazilian fighter has failed or run from a test at some point now. I think its fair to ask huge questions of any Brazilian MMA fighters or Gyms who suddenly see huge success. Guilty by association might seem unfair but when their whole system seem dodgy its pertinent. 

Shogun has never failed or ran from a test  

It's a fair point. We've had Anderson and Belfort fail a couple of times. JDS and Machida have failed. Wandy legged it from the testers. Bigfoot had his issues. There's Cyborg, obvs. 

Have Werdum, Aldo, Barao, Gadelha, Jacare, Lineker or Andrade ever had any PED controversies? Going back further, what about Gonzaga? 

I'm genuinely not sure if they're any dirtier than any other country's fighters or if the Americans, Canadians, UK fighters etc were just better at getting around it and masking it. Of course, USADA has blown it wide open now and it's harder for the cheaters than it's ever been, whenever they're from. 

I guess it looks worse on the Brazilians that it's so many high profile names. But still, I'd say if you looked at every Brazilian fighter on the roster over the last few years, there's way more who have never tested positive than you'd think. It's a handful of names getting popped but it's big names which maybe gives the impression that it's more rife in Brazil than other places. Which is probably a distorted view of things. On pure numbers, I bet you'd find a similar number, if not more Americans who have been popped since USADA came in than Brazilians, but there'll be more lower card names so it'll get less attention. 

I'm fine with asking questions but there's a difference between asking questions and doing what Rogan and Schaub often do, which is pure speculation often based on nothing, and as a side effect a lot of fans and media latch onto that stuff and run with it. Then that creates a narrative which attaches the stench of PEDs to a fighter who mightn't actually be guilty of anything. 

[Cousin Jim Bob]

Maybe I'm a cynic but when the main guys who are tested way more than others are caught I see a problem with the whole system. I think Brazil has had a huge problem. Now if thats been fixed ? I hope so.

 

[wandshogun09]

Just watched the weigh in...

What's Mike Perry's game here, sniffing Santiago Ponzinibbio? Weird twat. 

Also, not that it really matters but why the fuck is the Lamas vs Emmett fight still co-main over this? Perry vs Ponzinibbio is the real co-headliner of this one. That fight and the main event are the two everyone's been on about. When Aldo dropped off the card, Perry-Ponz should've got bumped up. 

Regardless, I love this card. Lawler vs Dos Anjos and Perry vs Ponzinibbio for me are about as 50/50 as can be. I'm leaning towards Lawler and Ponzinibbio wins but don't have a strong feeling how either fight goes really. Looking forward to seeing Galore Bofando back in there after his stunning debut. Glover vs Cirkunov could be a right ruck that we've neglected talking about. And further down the card Makdessi vs Trujillo and Mein vs Silva in particular stand out.