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Egg Shen

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7 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Heavier fighters will naturally have more finishes. 

Come on Jim, you were around and watching back then the same as me. GSP adopted a safety-first wrestling-heavy style at that stage of his career. The Serra KO spooked him, and after that he wasn't quite the same. He still won, and deserves credit for that, but in this discussion his manner of victory comes into play.

9 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Some of those wins are nothing to get overly excited about. As examples, Sonnen was a blown-up middleweight and Bader was a choker at the stage of his career. 

His best win stoppage win came in the rematch against Gustafsson.

Always easy to dismiss the wins after the fact, my friend. That's why I didn't call out the quality of the wins GSP had. I looked more to the way he won those fights. Jones has been more definitive in his wins for the most part.

10 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

He barely beat Santos. That fight undermines Jones's merit if anything. Same with the Reyes decision - who most felt he lost to. 

Fair is fair, the first win over DC was impressive. As were his wins over Shogun, Glover and Rashad. 

I actually don't think they undermine him at all. If anything, they show his ability win when things don't always go his way. He can face guys of all different styles and do what needs to be done to get the win. 

If you want to mention levels of opponent, Jones can¬†have off-days and still win, while GSP has an off-day and gets lamped by a pizza & pasta loving midget¬†ūüėČ

12 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

205lbs has been a weak division for years. Smith and Santos were practically journeyman at 185lbs. They went up to 205lbs and became contenders immediately.

They became contenders because Jones had beaten everyone else. There was literally no one else for him to face.

13 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Past-it fighters such as Shogun, etc have hung around for years in the 205lbs rankings because there are not better fighters to replace them. It's a shallow talent pool. 

And yet after losing to Jones when he was supposedly past his prime he's still around, some ten years later. Jones has beaten three generations of fighter at 205lbs. That's amazing.

15 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Those are Jones's personal choices. 

How many fighters would be superior if they made better choices? Plenty, I would guess.

Eh? Jones "better choices" would be not being a fucking lunatic. This isn't a fighter saying "damn, if only I'd gone vegan a few years back" or wishing they'd worked a little more on their boxing. I'm pointing out that he's such a physical freak that he managed to live a car-crash (no pun intended) of a life outside the cage, while still beating fools inside of it. 

16 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

GSP got stopped by Serra and was gifted the win against Hendricks. Those count against him. The Hughes loss should be discounted partially because he was a novice and Hughes was one of the best fighters in the sport at the time. Other than those three fights, he was pretty much dominant throughout his career in a tougher weightclass.

When GSP was "a novice" and losing to Matt Hughes at 23 years old, Jon Jones was winning the 205lbs title at the same age. If GSP was a novice at 23, so was Jones surely? Which means he won the UFC title against a 30 year old Shogun as a relative novice.

It's easy to dismiss Shogun at the time as some old fighter past his best, but he'd just smashed through Lyoto Machida in his previous fight, who at the time was 16-0 and was the "living rubik's cube" of MMA, remember?

And "being dominant" should be a given in this discussion. If a fighter isn't dominant they shouldn't be in this discussion to begin with. 

When you get to the point of discussion the greatest of all time, you have to go deeper than just dominance. That's why you start looking at ways fights were won and so on. GSP was a very conservative fighter. I remember back then there was a lot of frustration that he didn't look to impose himself more on his opponents.

24 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Jones has a DQ loss on his record, a NC, a gift decision against Reyes, and two razor close decision wins against Santos and Gusty. There are just as many blemishes on Jones's record as there are on GSP's. And Jones fought in a weaker weightclass.

A gift in your opinion. I had Jones edging it 3 rounds to 2 (the same as two of the three judges if I recall correctly). It's easy to go in with the mindset that because Reyes was the underdog anything he does is magnified. In reality, he didn't do enough. He got the moral victory for sure. A bit like Rocky in the first fight with Creed.

The weakness of weight classes and opponents is all subjective to such a degree that it can't really come into play. For every Smith and Santos you pick out, I can highlight a past-it Matt Hughes and a blown up BJ Penn.

I'm looking at longevity, crossover of generational opponents, and how fights were finished. I'm not saying that GSP is a bum by any stretch, and he's easily number two in the discussion. But Jones is easily number one, simply based on his longevity due to his early emergence as a proper world class fighter (he was winning the title in devastating fashion at 23 while GSP was being made to pay for schoolboy errors against Matt Hughes), the amount of time he's been on top, he's undefeated, and he's still only 32 years old.

At 32 GSP had narrowly beaten Hendricks while taking a real beating, and he was coming out of fights of late looking pretty beaten up. He walked away at the right time.

At 32 Jones is still unbeaten, and he's now talking about moving up to face someone who's been fighting 55lbs heavier than him the past few years. 

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24 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

I don't agree that Khabib doesn't have the time to match Jones's resume though. Khabib already has wins over McGregor, RDA, and Poirier. If he can beat Gaethje, which is a massive if, his best wins will be at least a match for Jones's best wins. 

Again, I don't think those wins, even with the Gaethje win, would be anywhere near enough. Longevity has to play a part, and that means defending the title numerous times over a number of years.

Khabib won't be around that long. He's already talking retirement.

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I’ll not have this GSP slander on his fucking birthday David. You nasty piece of work, you. 

 

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1 hour ago, David said:

Okay, first thing. Unless Jones goes back and faces Matt Hamill, he has no defeats to avenge. 

Second, we all look back through rose-tinted glasses at GSP's run today. I distinctly recall the criticism of him never finishing his opponents back when he was an active fighter. Before he beat Bisping the last guy he'd actually stopped was BJ Penn eight years and eight fights previously. And that was a corner stoppage.

His last actual stoppage was Matt Serra. Think about that for a second. Before GSP beat Bisping the last fighter he actually stopped was Matt Serra.

This is an odd criterion to judge the GOAT standard by, given that a large proportion of Jones' wins were also decisions.

Quote

 

Came into the UFC at 21 years old. Won the 205lbs title at 23, making him the youngest champion in the weight division history of the company. 

He's fought and stopped Brandon Vera, Vladimir Matyushenko, Ryan Bader, Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and Alexander Gustafsson.

Decision wins over the likes of Stephan Bonnar, Rashad Evans, Glover Tiexeira, Daniel Cormier, OSP, Anthony Smith, Thiago Santos & Dominick Reyes.

He's essentially been winning across three different "generations" of light-heavyweights. The Shogun/Rampage/Machida era, the Cormier/Gustafsson/Glover era, and now he's marching through the current generation as well.

21 years as a pro, 21 UFC wins, no defeats aside from a bullshit DQ over ten years ago. 

I don't for the life of me understand why he can only be considered the greatest of all time if he moves up and wins against the best at heavyweight? His resume as it stands is fucking insane. Because he came in so young, and was at the very top of his game from day one he's crossed numerous generations of UFC fighters and defeated them all.

Because almost every criterion you're using could be applied to GSP as well. His longevity is pretty legendary. He's beaten a Who's Who at welterweight, and towards the end of his reign there were still a whole load of sharks coming through. It's been commented quite regularly that Jones has cleared out 205, and that there's almost no new talent coming through to inspire the imagination.

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He's a physical anomaly. He has two brothers who played NFL football. Do you realise how rare it is to have one person in a family make it to that level, let alone two? He's from a family of genetic freaks. That should highlight the kind of athlete we're talking about.

Not to mention that he's essentially been handling the best fighters in the division all the while he's been partying, drinking, doing all sorts. Jones at 70% has been more than good enough to beat the best over the past ten years or so.

The fact that he's over ten years into a UFC career, 21 UFC wins under his belt and we still haven't seen him in that kind of situation tells you all you need to know. He's that good that he has never really been in trouble. The one time he looked like he was in a real fight against Gustafsson he pulled out the stops and kicked up into another gear to get the win.

As far as I'm concerned, genetic freakishness by itself doesn't enter into it - Penn had amazing natural talent, but his squandering of it means he doesn't get a look-in as GOAT.

Quote

I get that people don't like him. He's a smarmy prick for sure, but that can't be allowed to distort the facts. There's no one who comes close to him. GSP and Khabib are very good, and right up there as all-time greats no doubt. But GSP had his shortcomings. He lost a few times, and not by decision in close fights. He got stopped. He also arguably lost that last fight with Hendricks.

Khabib is awesome. I love him, but I don't think he'll be around long enough to cement his place in the discussion really. He was late to the title, and spent a fair chunk of time missing weight, being injured and so on. I think he'll be the best lightweight of all time most certainly though.

But Jones is on another level entirely man. He's a generational athlete. We'll not see another like him for a long time once he's hung them up.

It isn't a fact that no-one comes close to him, and you saying that "these are facts" doesn't make it so. Others have provided plenty of criteria via which to judge the GOAT - that you don't agree is your prerogative, but you're not objectively right.

I don't like Jones, that's true, but I also fucking hate Nurmagomedov as well; I still rate him as a GOAT-in-waiting.

Also, as I said, a lot of this debate comes down to what criteria by which one judges greatness. I judge GSP to be the greatest because, using the standards above, he qualifies, and the fact that he carried himself like a champion and didn't waste years of his career making a roaring cunt of himself gives him the edge. 

Furthermore, I'm not saying that Jones isn't the GOAT, or that he can't be, I'm just saying that:

1. He's not the GOAT by my criteria, and

2. The claim that it's "not even close" is bollocks. That incredibly knowledgeable posters like wand and jim can even have this debate with you is pretty strong evidence that it is close.

Of course, I fully accept that this is my subjective opinion as a fairly casual MMA fan, and not the be-all and end-all.

Edited by Carbomb

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Just now, Carbomb said:

Also, as I said, a lot of this debate comes down to what criteria by which one judges greatness. I judge GSP to be the greatest because, using the standards above, he qualifies, and the fact that he carried himself like a champion and didn't waste years of his career making a roaring cunt of himself gives him the edge. 

But what if GSP sent Nigel Farage a facemask? Or admitted that he thought Jair Bolsonaro "wasn't all that bad really"? You'd likely drop him down a few slots in your ranking, right?

In all seriousness, "carrying yourself" like a champion doesn't come into the GOAT discussion. This is people who smack each other in the face for a living we're talking about. There's very little redeemable qualities on the go here. 

What's next? Giving McG credit in the GOAT discussion because he always looked the business? Because he opted for a more formal attire over a tracksuit and trainers? Come on.

GSP lost a couple of times, quite decisively. Jon Jones hasn't. GSP didn't win as frequently in decisive fashion. Jon Jones did. GSP was calling it a day at 32. Jon Jones is still very much active. Longevity, manner of wins, undefeated streaks. They all matter.

That's facts. You don't have to like it. Did you see GSP in his prime? Where you part of discussion groups and forums when everyone was moaning like fuck that he was boring and just wrestled folk without actually trying to win by stoppage? I was. I can remember those days that have been magically forgotten since he's retired.

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5 minutes ago, David said:

What's next? Giving McG credit in the GOAT discussion because he always looked the business? Because he opted for a more formal attire over a tracksuit and trainers?

Oddly enough, he turned up to one of his many court appearances in an Adidas tracksuit.

McGregor at a UFC press conference;

14359750-DF40-4255-A4-FB-2-E72-CC70-F330

McGregor leaving court;

C1-F2-CBB5-D214-4894-9-CA7-0286-AF6-B466

He’s got his priorities all fucked up. And he definitely doesn’t always look the business. As seen in this picture of him wearing a suit made from what appears to be...everyone’s Nan’s curtains.

9-FB6-BB56-7-BE7-467-A-9796-7991-D51-BD8

One of Paige VanZant’s implants under his foot there as well. 

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3 minutes ago, David said:

Come on Jim, you were around and watching back then the same as me. GSP adopted a safety-first wrestling-heavy style at that stage of his career. The Serra KO spooked him, and after that he wasn't quite the same. He still won, and deserves credit for that, but in this discussion his manner of victory comes into play.

That did play a role. I should have mentioned that. 

Jones is little different though. The only official stoppage he has on his record since 2013 is Gusty. 

5 minutes ago, David said:

Always easy to dismiss the wins after the fact, my friend. That's why I didn't call out the quality of the wins GSP had. I looked more to the way he won those fights. Jones has been more definitive in his wins for the most part.

See above about Jones's stoppage percentage since 2013. 

GSP didn't lose a round between 2007 and late 2012. In that time he faced Fitch, Koscheck, Alves, Penn and Shields. You can't get much more definitive than that. 

7 minutes ago, David said:

I actually don't think they undermine him at all. If anything, they show his ability win when things don't always go his way. He can face guys of all different styles and do what needs to be done to get the win. 

If you want to mention levels of opponent, Jones can¬†have off-days and still win, while GSP has an off-day and gets lamped by a pizza & pasta loving midget¬†ūüėČ

GSP rallied against Penn and Condit when they had him in trouble. He had the same ability to overcome adversity.

GSP beat a wide range of fighters as well. 

GSP had off-days, such as his ones against Hardy and Shields, and still won every round. 

9 minutes ago, David said:

When GSP was "a novice" and losing to Matt Hughes at 23 years old, Jon Jones was winning the 205lbs title at the same age. If GSP was a novice at 23, so was Jones surely? Which means he won the UFC title against a 30 year old Shogun as a relative novice.

Jones had 13 fights before facing Shogun. GSP had 7 fights before facing Hughes. 

I credited Jones' win over Shogun above btw. 

11 minutes ago, David said:

They became contenders because Jones had beaten everyone else. There was literally no one else for him to face.

Both have had¬†success against top contenders at 205lbs.¬† Smith has wins over¬†Oezdemir and¬†Gustafsson. Santos has a win¬†over¬†BŇāachowicz.

14 minutes ago, David said:

A gift in your opinion.

The majority of people thought Reyes beat Jones.

The majority of people thought Hendricks beat GSP.

Whatever our personal opinions on those bouts, it's safe to say that both were lucky to get the nod. 

16 minutes ago, David said:

he was winning the title in devastating fashion at 23 while GSP was being made to pay for schoolboy errors against Matt Hughes

Even if Jones was better at 23 than GSP, it doesn't mean he was better in general.  I could just as easily say that GSP at 25 was dominating Hughes to win the welterweight belt, whereas Jones was almost getting armbarred by Vitor Belfort.  Or that at the same point of his career that GSP was schooling Fitch, Jones was getting taken to the limit by Gusty. Jones is also showing the same signs of regression at 32 as GSP did.

23 minutes ago, David said:

I'm looking at longevity.........................

Longevity can be overrated. Johnny Nelson had longevity and a lengthy title reign. Few would rate him as an all-time great because he boxed in a naff division. 

I'm not saying that Jones is MMA's Johnny Nelson. But he isn't the GOAT in my opinion because I think the 205lbs division is weak and don't rate a lot of the wins on his record. Top 3 all-time? For now, yes. 

Of course it is subjective, there is no objective way to have these debates really. 

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59 minutes ago, David said:

Again, I don't think those wins, even with the Gaethje win, would be anywhere near enough. Longevity has to play a part, and that means defending the title numerous times over a number of years.

Khabib won't be around that long. He's already talking retirement.

BOXING-Nelson.jpg

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1 hour ago, David said:

But what if GSP sent Nigel Farage a facemask? Or admitted that he thought Jair Bolsonaro "wasn't all that bad really"? You'd likely drop him down a few slots in your ranking, right?

Given that I just said in the very post you've just responded to that I fucking hate Nurmagomedov, but still consider him to be in the running for GOAT, this seems a very odd "Gotcha!" to try and go for.

Quote

In all seriousness, "carrying yourself" like a champion doesn't come into the GOAT discussion. This is people who smack each other in the face for a living we're talking about. There's very little redeemable qualities on the go here. 

What's next? Giving McG credit in the GOAT discussion because he always looked the business? Because he opted for a more formal attire over a tracksuit and trainers? Come on.

I clearly said that for me it gives him the edge when having this conversation. He didn't get himself banned or suspended from the sport for suspected roiding, or for getting arrested. It's not the only factor via which I'm looking at things - it's more of a Goal Difference thing than a Points thing.

Quote

GSP lost a couple of times, quite decisively. Jon Jones hasn't. GSP didn't win as frequently in decisive fashion. Jon Jones did. GSP was calling it a day at 32. Jon Jones is still very much active. Longevity, manner of wins, undefeated streaks. They all matter.

That's facts. You don't have to like it. Did you see GSP in his prime? Where you part of discussion groups and forums when everyone was moaning like fuck that he was boring and just wrestled folk without actually trying to win by stoppage? I was. I can remember those days that have been magically forgotten since he's retired.

I admit I didn't see him in his prime at the time, but I have watched his fights back where I can get hold of them. Think it's a bit weird for you to claim that him being boring means he shouldn't be GOAT when you're such a massive fan of Fitch. Not to mention Jones has had his snoozers over the years.

There are plenty of facts. You've provided some, wand's provided some, jim's provided some. I find the arguments of the latter two, coupled with the facts they've supplied, to be more compelling that GSP is currently the GOAT, and that the conversation about the contenders for GOATship is a close-run one, not a runaway win for one of the three we've been discussing. But I'm not going to try and pretend that it's indisputable that my view is the correct one.

Edited by Carbomb

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Floyd Mayweather is the king of decisions. In the most lucrative stretch of his career (De La Hoya on) he finished 3 of 13 bouts and routinely bored the audience by cruising safely to decisions, and you can argue only 1 of those stoppages were legitimate (Hatton). Does that make anyone think any less of Floyd's resume?

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I feel like in my era "Bones" Jones is the best in MMA. I do think in recent years he has become less explosive and looking for the finish, not sure if becoming older has made him more aware or if outside stuff has got in the way, but I am a bit of a snob when it comes to MMA and boxing when it comes to guys dominating their weight classes and just staying there. It's something that disappointed me for many years when it came to Anderson Silva, he would go up sometimes to 205lbs, feast on guys he knew he would beat, but when it came to fighting the best "Jones" at some point during his 185lbs run, it was we trained together so can't fight him, I found it to be an excuse. The same for GSP at 170lbs and Jones now when it comes to moving to the heavyweight division. Move out your comfort zone and conquer, a loss will not end your career. It doesn't change what any of them achieved during their careers, I know in the end GSP went up, but he did so believing without doubt he could beat Bisping, win a second title in another division and leave without defending it

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Anderson picked his spots at 205lb no doubt. His 205lb fights were great to watch though except for the Cormier fight.

However much I like to see fighters stay in their division though, it holds merit in the discussion of GOAT that you held belts in multiple divisions, its a hard thing to achieve in MMA given the big difference in weights. You have to admit GSP got handed a gift by getting Michael Bisping at the 185lb champ though.

Overall though its a silly argument, theres no right and wrong answer no matter how much you fight your corner.

 

Edited by Egg Shen

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13 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

Overall though its a silly argument, theres no right and wrong answer no matter how much you fight your corner.

We're posting on a forum built on men pretending to fight each other, there's nothing but silly arguments to be had. You're right though, there is no right or wrong answer (except mines, of course), but it's been fun looking back at the older fights and the stats.

I'd probably forgotten much of what Jones did in his early career, and also what GSP did, so this has all been a nice little walk down memory lane. And let's face it, there's not much else to really be discussing at the moment.

Edited by David

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