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On 5/14/2020 at 5:09 PM, Carbomb said:

Normally, I'd say he's biting off more than he can chew with Ngannou, what with the size and power differential, not to mention that his reach would be almost negated, but Big Francis has shown a fair bit of vulnerability against fighters with a complete, integrated game. Someone like Jones, with the fight IQ, natural talent, and frustrating elusiveness, I would rate more than most LHWs to have a chance against him. Against a canny operator like Miocic, not so sure.

That said - that power, though. It's amazing just how much difference it makes, not just in terms of the effect it has when it lands, but how much it limits an opponent's game, as a threat they always need to be keenly wary of. If Jones did face Ngannou and hold on for a sub or decision win, he has to be in with a shout for GOAT - that sort of feat would take nerves of fucking carbon steel.

One thing I'd say about Jones is that it's easy to imagine he's smaller than he really is. At 205lbs he's obviously cutting down, but I saw him in person at the press conference a month or two before his fight with Reyes, and at his walking about weight he's fucking huge. Easily comparable with some of the smaller heavyweights.

I think he'd simply be too good for Ngannou. I'd put Jones up there with Stipe in many ways. Both guys are 6'4, both are around 240lbs, which is where I would see Jones coming in. Stipe only has an 80" reach, while Jones has a reach of 84".

Stipe was too fast for Ngannou and completely outclassed him. It wasn't even fucking close. I'd say Jones could do the same, except even better. He's more athletic that Stipe, has a better fight IQ, and is generally more talented.

Bones is already the GOAT in all honesty. No one else really comes close. Unbeaten in 12 years as a pro (the stupid Hamill decision aside), 21 UFC wins (including the DC headkick from heaven. I count that bad boy regardless.)

And to top it all off, he's accomplished much of what he has while he's been cutting corners and acting like a madman. The shit he gets up to would normally see a fighter not just lose, but go into a nosedive and become a shell of themselves.

He's still hammering dudes right, left and centre. 

He's wanting the Ngannou fight because he's smart enough to know that he and his coaches can put together the plan needed to win. Ngannou is exciting as all hell, but it's easy to forget he got handled by Stipe not that long ago, and I don't care what anyone says, he's not improved to the extent where he's righted those wrongs. 

Jones would stop him late on or win a lopsided decision.

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I wasn't sure where to put this but I know some have asked questions about it before but the Chuck & Tito 30 for 30 show is being shown this Friday evening at 22:00 on BT Sport 1.

Here’s Marco Ruas murdering Paul Varelans with leg kicks just because...it’s Tuesday.   

didnt know where else to post this but this has to be a first...  

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12 minutes ago, David said:

Bones is already the GOAT in all honesty. No one else really comes close. 

The first sentence, I see a very strong argument for and is perfectly reasonable, but I don't agree. The fact I and others don't agree would suggest that the second statement is incorrect. There are people who come close. Jim made an excellent argument for why GSP is the GOAT, which is one I subscribe to - the level of competition at WW, avenging his losses in convincing fashion, beating a much bigger man to become a two-weight champion, and to come out of retirement to do so. 

The same argument could also be used to justify Nurmagomedov as the GOAT when he hangs them up - he's completely undefeated in a shark tank of a division, many of his wins over some of the best in that division have been terrifyingly one-sided, and he still hasn't finished yet. 

In the final analysis, a lot of this debate will come down to what people think greatness should be defined by, and that's a debate in itself.At present, I'd say Nurmagomedov and GSP have more of a case for GOATship, and that all three guys run each other very close for contendership. But if Jones miraculously keeps his nose clean, and can score some HW victories against the best in that division, I think that will put him ahead. For now, I think GSP has it, and he will be more likely overtaken by Nurmagomedov than Jones, if for no better reason than Nurmagomedov is infinitely more disciplined. 

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Would Jones survive an onslaught like Stipe did in his first round against Ngannou? I aint so sure, not many men could. Jones isnt the force he once was either, it may be complacency but i do think Jones is on his way down, he's snuck through his last couple of fights and just done enough to win. I aint so sure he wants to really fight a surging Ngannou at this point.

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29 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

The first sentence, I see a very strong argument for and is perfectly reasonable, but I don't agree. The fact I and others don't agree would suggest that the second statement is incorrect. There are people who come close. Jim made an excellent argument for why GSP is the GOAT, which is one I subscribe to - the level of competition at WW, avenging his losses in convincing fashion, beating a much bigger man to become a two-weight champion, and to come out of retirement to do so. 

Okay, first thing. Unless Jones goes back and faces Matt Hamill, he has no defeats to avenge. 

Second, we all look back through rose-tinted glasses at GSP's run today. I distinctly recall the criticism of him never finishing his opponents back when he was an active fighter. Before he beat Bisping the last guy he'd actually stopped was BJ Penn eight years and eight fights previously. And that was a corner stoppage.

His last actual stoppage was Matt Serra. Think about that for a second. Before GSP beat Bisping the last fighter he actually stopped was Matt Serra.

37 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

The same argument could also be used to justify Nurmagomedov as the GOAT when he hangs them up - he's completely undefeated in a shark tank of a division, many of his wins over some of the best in that division have been terrifyingly one-sided, and he still hasn't finished yet.

There is an argument for Nurmagomedov, but his claim won't really be valid until he's a bit deeper into his career. I'm talking about right now.

38 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

In the final analysis, a lot of this debate will come down to what people think greatness should be defined by, and that's a debate in itself.At present, I'd say Nurmagomedov and GSP have more of a case for GOATship, and that all three guys run each other very close for contendership. But if Jones miraculously keeps his nose clean, and can score some HW victories against the best in that division, I think that will put him ahead. For now, I think GSP has it, and he will be more likely overtaken by Nurmagomedov than Jones, if for no better reason than Nurmagomedov is infinitely more disciplined.

I looked at GSP above, let's look at Jones.

Came into the UFC at 21 years old. Won the 205lbs title at 23, making him the youngest champion in the weight division history of the company. 

He's fought and stopped Brandon Vera, Vladimir Matyushenko, Ryan Bader, Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and Alexander Gustafsson.

Decision wins over the likes of Stephan Bonnar, Rashad Evans, Glover Tiexeira, Daniel Cormier, OSP, Anthony Smith, Thiago Santos & Dominick Reyes.

He's essentially been winning across three different "generations" of light-heavyweights. The Shogun/Rampage/Machida era, the Cormier/Gustafsson/Glover era, and now he's marching through the current generation as well.

21 years as a pro, 21 UFC wins, no defeats aside from a bullshit DQ over ten years ago. 

I don't for the life of me understand why he can only be considered the greatest of all time if he moves up and wins against the best at heavyweight? His resume as it stands is fucking insane. Because he came in so young, and was at the very top of his game from day one he's crossed numerous generations of UFC fighters and defeated them all.

He's a physical anomaly. He has two brothers who played NFL football. Do you realise how rare it is to have one person in a family make it to that level, let alone two? He's from a family of genetic freaks. That should highlight the kind of athlete we're talking about.

Not to mention that he's essentially been handling the best fighters in the division all the while he's been partying, drinking, doing all sorts. Jones at 70% has been more than good enough to beat the best over the past ten years or so.

7 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

Would Jones survive an onslaught like Stipe did in his first round against Ngannou? I aint so sure, not many men could.

The fact that he's over ten years into a UFC career, 21 UFC wins under his belt and we still haven't seen him in that kind of situation tells you all you need to know. He's that good that he has never really been in trouble. The one time he looked like he was in a real fight against Gustafsson he pulled out the stops and kicked up into another gear to get the win.

I get that people don't like him. He's a smarmy prick for sure, but that can't be allowed to distort the facts. There's no one who comes close to him. GSP and Khabib are very good, and right up there as all-time greats no doubt. But GSP had his shortcomings. He lost a few times, and not by decision in close fights. He got stopped. He also arguably lost that last fight with Hendricks.

Khabib is awesome. I love him, but I don't think he'll be around long enough to cement his place in the discussion really. He was late to the title, and spent a fair chunk of time missing weight, being injured and so on. I think he'll be the best lightweight of all time most certainly though.

But Jones is on another level entirely man. He's a generational athlete. We'll not see another like him for a long time once he's hung them up.

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As much as I can’t stand the prick, Jones is either #1 or #2 in the GOAT convo for me. He’s that good and as much as I want to, I can’t really argue with David’s logic. Only thing I’ll disagree with is that he’s marching through today’s 205ers. Whether you had him winning the Reyes and Santos fights or not, he didn’t march through those guys at all. I’m not with the talk that either fight was a robbery. I had Jones narrowly beating Santos and the Reyes fight was mega close. But he didn’t school those guys at all. But the thing that makes his case strong against GSP for me is that he finished the two guys who were his biggest rivals in Cormier and Gustafsson. As awesome as GSP is/was, finishing DC and Gus is bigger than finishing Serra and last legs Bisping. It’s a close thing between GSP and Jones for me but I think they’re 1 and 2, just depends which order you have them in. Then you can start talking about Khabib, Anderson Silva, Jose Aldo, Strangebrew Thacker and guys like that. 

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24 minutes ago, David said:

His last actual stoppage was Matt Serra. Think about that for a second. Before GSP beat Bisping the last fighter he actually stopped was Matt Serra.

Heavier fighters will naturally have more finishes. 

24 minutes ago, David said:

He's fought and stopped Brandon Vera, Vladimir Matyushenko, Ryan Bader, Shogun Rua, Rampage Jackson, Lyoto Machida, Vitor Belfort, Chael Sonnen and Alexander Gustafsson.

Some of those wins are nothing to get overly excited about. As examples, Sonnen was a blown-up middleweight and Bader was a choker at the stage of his career. 

His best win stoppage win came in the rematch against Gustafsson.

24 minutes ago, David said:

Decision wins over the likes of Stephan Bonnar, Rashad Evans, Glover Tiexeira, Daniel Cormier, OSP, Anthony Smith, Thiago Santos & Dominick Reyes.

He barely beat Santos. That fight undermines Jones's merit if anything. Same with the Reyes decision - who most felt he lost to. 

Fair is fair, the first win over DC was impressive. As were his wins over Shogun, Glover and Rashad. 

24 minutes ago, David said:

His resume as it stands is fucking insane.

205lbs has been a weak division for years. Smith and Santos were practically journeyman at 185lbs. They went up to 205lbs and became contenders immediately. 

Past-it fighters such as Shogun, etc have hung around for years in the 205lbs rankings because there are not better fighters to replace them. It's a shallow talent pool. 

24 minutes ago, David said:

Not to mention that he's essentially been handling the best fighters in the division all the while he's been partying, drinking, doing all sorts. Jones at 70% has been more than good enough to beat the best over the past ten years or so.

Those are Jones's personal choices. 

How many fighters would be superior if they made better choices? Plenty, I would guess. 

24 minutes ago, David said:

But GSP had his shortcomings. He lost a few times, and not by decision in close fights. He got stopped. He also arguably lost that last fight with Hendricks.

GSP got stopped by Serra and was gifted the win against Hendricks. Those count against him. The Hughes loss should be discounted partially because he was a novice and Hughes was one of the best fighters in the sport at the time. Other than those three fights, he was pretty much dominant throughout his career in a tougher weightclass. 

Jones has a DQ loss on his record, a NC, a gift decision against Reyes, and two razor close decision wins against Santos and Gusty. There are just as many blemishes on Jones's record as there are on GSP's. And Jones fought in a weaker weightclass. 

24 minutes ago, David said:

Khabib is awesome. I love him, but I don't think he'll be around long enough to cement his place in the discussion really. He was late to the title, and spent a fair chunk of time missing weight, being injured and so on. I think he'll be the best lightweight of all time most certainly though.

Make up your mind.

Just last month you said Khabib was "the greatest MMA fighter I've ever seen, that's for sure"

 

Edited by jimufctna24
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2 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Just last month you said Khabib was "the greatest MMA fighter I've ever seen, that's for sure"

I'll get to your other points later, as I don't have time just now, but I'll clarify this statement. Khabib is the greatest MMA fighter I've ever seen. I don't think he'll go down as the GOAT though, for the reasons I mentioned. He'll not be able to produce the sheer body of work over the timeframe that Jones has.

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if Khabib rules 155lb for another few years he'll be in with a shout.

Jones is for me the GOAT, that said i still dont fancy his chances against Francis right now. Like i said, I do think Jones is on the back end of his prime. 

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Is it just me who thinks GSP vs Hendricks wasn’t anything like the robbery people like to say it is?

It was close but I think too many people either went¬†by the ‚Äėlook how marked up¬†GSP‚Äôs face is, how did he win?‚Äô logic or they bought Dana‚Äôs wolf tickets that GSP was nearly dead after the fight. Like when he tried to say GSP¬†wasn‚Äôt at the post-fight press conference because he¬†had to be rushed straight¬†to hospital. Only for GSP to walk in 5 minutes later leaving egg all over Dana‚Äôs big radish-like face.¬†

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3 minutes ago, David said:

I'll get to your other points later, as I don't have time just now, but I'll clarify this statement. Khabib is the greatest MMA fighter I've ever seen. I don't think he'll go down as the GOAT though, for the reasons I mentioned. He'll not be able to produce the sheer body of work over the timeframe that Jones has.

Okay fine.

I don't agree that Khabib doesn't have the time to match Jones's resume though. Khabib already has wins over McGregor, RDA, and Poirier. If he can beat Gaethje, which is a massive if, his best wins will be at least a match for Jones's best wins. 

1 minute ago, wandshogun09 said:

Is it just me who thinks GSP vs Hendricks wasn’t anything like the robbery people like to say it is?

It was a close fight. The only two people I know who scored the fight to GSP was Dave Meltzer and me (on a rewatch). 

It wasn't a robbery, but Hendricks probably should have received the nod. A bit like Jones with Reyes. 

 

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5 minutes ago, jimufctna24 said:

Okay fine.

I don't agree that Khabib doesn't have the time to match Jones's resume though. Khabib already has wins over McGregor, RDA, and Poirier. If he can beat Gaethje, which is a massive if, his best wins will be at least a match for Jones's best wins. 

 

 

may have a point there.

I need to rewatch GSP/Hendricks.

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17 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

Is it just me who thinks GSP vs Hendricks wasn’t anything like the robbery people like to say it is?

It was close but I think too many people either went¬†by the ‚Äėlook how marked up¬†GSP‚Äôs face is, how did he win?‚Äô logic or they bought Dana‚Äôs wolf tickets that GSP was nearly dead after the fight. Like when he tried to say GSP¬†wasn‚Äôt at the post-fight press conference because he¬†had to be rushed straight¬†to hospital. Only for GSP to walk in 5 minutes later leaving egg all over Dana‚Äôs big radish-like face.¬†

This. I watched it backed about 6 months ago and scored it 3-2 to GSP. Dana was furious because he was fed up with GSP at this point and would rather deal with Hendricks.

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, and how did¬†that work out? Hendricks ended¬†up fizzling¬†out, his ‚Äėlethal left¬†hand‚Äô stopped knocking people out and he got all fat and couldn‚Äôt make weight. Funnily enough around the time¬†USADA came in. Then GSP comes back on¬†his terms, headlines MSG¬†and wins another title.

I mean GSP vs Hendricks was close as fuck. I wouldn‚Äôt take issue with anyone scoring it for Hendricks or if the decision went to him that night. But a robbery it wasn‚Äôt. I think a lot of people had gone so deep with the ‚ÄėGSP is scared to fight Hendricks‚Äô line of thinking when he faced Diaz instead that they wanted to be validated by Hendricks winning and went in biased. Being objective though, that fight really could‚Äôve gone either way.¬†

Edited by wandshogun09
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