Who is the GOAT?

[Carbomb]

Again: I wouldn't be surprised if the UFC is a racist organisation, but then what is your explanation for nobody else except DJ complaining about exceptional treatment? 

When Woodley complains, he immediately puts it down to racism. When Diaz complains, I haven't heard him put it down to racism (and he could well do, being Latino). Also, I would like to know specifically what it is about the treatment Woodley's received that he feels is down to discrimination. Apart from having to wait a little while longer than average for a title shot (which isn't a unique situation to him, and includes white and Latino athletes), or being paid a bit less (which is a complaint of a number of fighters who aren't loudmouths), I'm not getting what makes the UFC's treatment of him so significantly worse than that of any other guy on their roster. There is a kernel of a case to be made about the money he's getting, given that DJ isn't earning much from the UFC either despite both of them being champions, but there's just as strong a case to be made that DJ's not earning money because he doesn't draw, because the division doesn't draw. From what I gather, Stipe Miocic isn't getting much money either, despite being champion, and I don't gather that Barao did during his time either. 

This bit: 

"And his response to Woodley's claim that he isn't being promoted properly? If he played the game, didn't kick up a fuss, and carried the attitude of "I'll fight anyone, any time, anywhere" he'd be a huge star by now.

In other words, shut the fuck up, do what you're told, fight when we tell you to and be fucking happy you're getting the chance to fight for us at all. Do that, and we'll do our job and promote you."

That doesn't say "racism" to me. That's standard UFC operating policy, that says that UFC are a bunch of abject cunts who treat all their fighters like cattle until one of them has enough clout and money to make life difficult for them. That isn't a surprise to anyone. They're a yellow-dog American company who try and bend every rule and cut every corner to make money, and usually they do it at the expense of their workers.

As to Dana's response, I agree it's shit. But then Dana White is a horrendous prick who behaves like an arrogant roaster towards everyone. He thinks the rules don't apply to him.

BTW as a mixed POC I've encountered discrimination from both white and black people, so don't try and make out like I'm ignorant on the issue, or that I'm treating it with levity. I've been involved in this fight since an early age, I know my politics, I'm pretty woke, and I'm sick of seeing both white people trivialise the struggle, and certain POC undermine it with frivolous claims that make it look like we're just angry and paranoid. I may not be from Ferguson or Tulsa or Baltimore or Los Angeles, but I know a fair thing or two about the subject matter myself.

[David]

9 hours ago, Carbomb said:

Again: I wouldn't be surprised if the UFC is a racist organisation, but then what is your explanation for nobody else except DJ complaining about exceptional treatment? 

When Woodley complains, he immediately puts it down to racism. When Diaz complains, I haven't heard him put it down to racism (and he could well do, being Latino). Also, I would like to know specifically what it is about the treatment Woodley's received that he feels is down to discrimination. Apart from having to wait a little while longer than average for a title shot (which isn't a unique situation to him, and includes white and Latino athletes), or being paid a bit less (which is a complaint of a number of fighters who aren't loudmouths), I'm not getting what makes the UFC's treatment of him so significantly worse than that of any other guy on their roster. There is a kernel of a case to be made about the money he's getting, given that DJ isn't earning much from the UFC either despite both of them being champions, but there's just as strong a case to be made that DJ's not earning money because he doesn't draw, because the division doesn't draw. From what I gather, Stipe Miocic isn't getting much money either, despite being champion, and I don't gather that Barao did during his time either. 

This bit: 

"And his response to Woodley's claim that he isn't being promoted properly? If he played the game, didn't kick up a fuss, and carried the attitude of "I'll fight anyone, any time, anywhere" he'd be a huge star by now.

In other words, shut the fuck up, do what you're told, fight when we tell you to and be fucking happy you're getting the chance to fight for us at all. Do that, and we'll do our job and promote you."

That doesn't say "racism" to me. That's standard UFC operating policy, that says that UFC are a bunch of abject cunts who treat all their fighters like cattle until one of them has enough clout and money to make life difficult for them. That isn't a surprise to anyone. They're a yellow-dog American company who try and bend every rule and cut every corner to make money, and usually they do it at the expense of their workers.

As to Dana's response, I agree it's shit. But then Dana White is a horrendous prick who behaves like an arrogant roaster towards everyone. He thinks the rules don't apply to him.

BTW as a mixed POC I've encountered discrimination from both white and black people, so don't try and make out like I'm ignorant on the issue, or that I'm treating it with levity. I've been involved in this fight since an early age, I know my politics, I'm pretty woke, and I'm sick of seeing both white people trivialise the struggle, and certain POC undermine it with frivolous claims that make it look like we're just angry and paranoid. I may not be from Ferguson or Tulsa or Baltimore or Los Angeles, but I know a fair thing or two about the subject matter myself.

My point on the matter is quite simple. I'm not going to take the views of an African-American, especially someone from that part of the US, and cast doubt on what he believes is racist behaviour. 

I'm pretty sure that Woodley knows all about the struggle that people like him face, and I don't think he's going to trivialise it to get a few more bucks out of the UFC. Basically, if he claims he's been treated differently because of the colour of his skin, and he's deemed it serious enough to actually come out and say it (and let's not kid ourselves on here, it's a serious allegation, and one that could lead to further mistreatment) then I'm not going to doubt him. 

I'm certainly not going to call him a moaning bitch, or a drama Queen, which is what has happened. The ease with which people have dismissed his claims and the quickness with which they've chosen to round on him is pretty fucking disturbing to be honest.

Although, in 2017 America I guess it shouldn't surprise me all that much.

[ColinBollocks]

1 hour ago, David said:

My point on the matter is quite simple. I'm not going to take the views of an African-American, especially someone from that part of the US, and cast doubt on what he believes is racist behaviour. 

I'm pretty sure that Woodley knows all about the struggle that people like him face, and I don't think he's going to trivialise it to get a few more bucks out of the UFC. Basically, if he claims he's been treated differently because of the colour of his skin, and he's deemed it serious enough to actually come out and say it (and let's not kid ourselves on here, it's a serious allegation, and one that could lead to further mistreatment) then I'm not going to doubt him. 

I'm certainly not going to call him a moaning bitch, or a drama Queen, which is what has happened. The ease with which people have dismissed his claims and the quickness with which they've chosen to round on him is pretty fucking disturbing to be honest.

Although, in 2017 America I guess it shouldn't surprise me all that much.

Oh David.

Anyway, I personally quite like Woodley and never really understood the hate (although I understand the dislike for his last two fights), but for matters such as this it's not a simple answer. I have absolutely no doubt Woodley does receive different treatment from some because his skin colour is different to theirs. I can only hope the UFC isn't racist, but I think Carbomb pointed to some good examples that, again, show it's not a simple answer.

It's does make me sad that someone of Woodley's excellence feels his life is held down by racism.

[Tamura]

11 hours ago, Carbomb said:

From what I gather, Stipe Miocic isn't getting much money either, despite being champion, and I don't gather that Barao did during his time either. 

https://www.mmamania.com/2017/1/17/14290460/stipe-miocic-crapped-on-alistair-overeem-earned-more-heavyweight-ufc-203

Stipe Miocic, who is white, gets paid less than Alistair Overeem, who is of mixed race, despite being the former being the champion and the latter not being the champion. Obviously that's the fault of the racist UFC.

[Carbomb]

1 hour ago, David said:

My point on the matter is quite simple. I'm not going to take the views of an African-American, especially someone from that part of the US, and cast doubt on what he believes is racist behaviour. 

I'm pretty sure that Woodley knows all about the struggle that people like him face, and I don't think he's going to trivialise it to get a few more bucks out of the UFC. Basically, if he claims he's been treated differently because of the colour of his skin, and he's deemed it serious enough to actually come out and say it (and let's not kid ourselves on here, it's a serious allegation, and one that could lead to further mistreatment) then I'm not going to doubt him. 

I'm certainly not going to call him a moaning bitch, or a drama Queen, which is what has happened. The ease with which people have dismissed his claims and the quickness with which they've chosen to round on him is pretty fucking disturbing to be honest.

Although, in 2017 America I guess it shouldn't surprise me all that much.

Yes, I get that; of course I do. And I agree that casting aspersions on him as a "moaning bitch" or a "drama queen" is definitely a step too far, and his accusations warranted a much more serious response than he got. The UFC should have definitely made a point of addressing his concerns publicly, and reassuring both him and the black fighters on their roster of their commitment to equality and fairness.

As a general point, given the UFC's own history, and my own understanding of America and its corporate and political culture, I am infinitely more inclined to believe that an American corporation is practicing discrimination against a POC than that the individual in question is "playing the race card". Pretty much every example you can point to in American history, you will hear me arguing that these were the results of the injustices instituted and practiced by white America and its numerous establishments (which is pretty much all of establishment America). You probably won't agree with me on this, but I personally don't have a problem with the Nation Of Islam, because 1. they don't actively attempt to perpetrate oppression against whites, and 2. their principles have resulted from from seeing the treatment black people have received when trying to integrate with whites, but also from seeing the inadvertent benefits black people got from having extreme segregation forced upon them by racist white America (see the Tulsa race riots/Black Wall Street).

With all that said and taken into account, I practice a certain degree of reasoning based on existing evidence, and as such, my point still stands regarding all the black UFC fighters I referred to, and especially the black Brazilians, most of whom, I guarantee you, will have suffered much worse racism and violence in Brazil than the vast majority of black Americans (you'd be surprised at how many people think the "Latin"-looking Brazilians are the majority of the population, instead of the blacks - that's largely because the vast majority of black Brazilians grow up poor, and are never rich enough to travel or attain publicly visible positions, and thus represent Brazil to the world). So far, the only other fighter you have pointed to who has made a claim of bullying (and even then hasn't ascribed it to racism) is DJ.

And again: please give clear examples of where the UFC have demonstrably treated him so differently as to warrant these accusations, because so far I'm not seeing much. And I say this not as a white person looking to dismiss a POC's experiences of suffering out of hand, I'm speaking as a mixed POC with my own experiences of racism; race and discrimination has always been at the centre of my political awareness and reasoning, and I have made sure to educate myself, and keep educating myself, on the issues that affect all POC. We live in a skewed world where the white establishment is able to point to minority examples and paint them as emblematic of the majority, without suffering the same in response. I have seen people plainly play the race card in front of me (and I include many other ethnicities in that, not just blacks), and it aggravates me because it has taken a lot of struggle to get society to the point where it doesn't just dismiss legitimate POC concerns.

HOWEVER: I am not dismissing your point out of hand. Someone else made a very good point earlier which does give significant credence to Woodley's claim, which is that the vast majority of black American fighters in MMA are from collegiate backgrounds, meaning that, whilst they will have obviously experienced racism and suffered as a result, they won't have experienced it to the degree Woodley has. Consequently, there is a good chance that the reason why they have no reason to accuse the UFC of racism is because they've not made the UFC uncomfortable at any time, that they've decided to play the system and make their money while the making's good; conversely, in this case, Woodley could very well be the first man from the ghetto to make them truly uncomfortable, holding up a mirror to the UFC's hypocrisy.

[David]

12 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Yes, I get that; of course I do. And I agree that casting aspersions on him as a "moaning bitch" or a "drama queen" is definitely a step too far, and his accusations warranted a much more serious response than he got. The UFC should have definitely made a point of addressing his concerns publicly, and reassuring both him and the black fighters on their roster of their commitment to equality and fairness.

As a general point, given the UFC's own history, and my own understanding of America and its corporate and political culture, I am infinitely more inclined to believe that an American corporation is practicing discrimination against a POC than that the individual in question is "playing the race card". Pretty much every example you can point to in American history, you will hear me arguing that these were the results of the injustices instituted and practiced by white America and its numerous establishments (which is pretty much all of establishment America). You probably won't agree with me on this, but I personally don't have a problem with the Nation Of Islam, because 1. they don't actively attempt to perpetrate oppression against whites, and 2. their principles have resulted from from seeing the treatment black people have received when trying to integrate with whites, but also from seeing the inadvertent benefits black people got from having extreme segregation forced upon them by racist white America (see the Tulsa race riots/Black Wall Street).

With all that said and taken into account, I practice a certain degree of reasoning based on existing evidence, and as such, my point still stands regarding all the black UFC fighters I referred to, and especially the black Brazilians, most of whom, I guarantee you, will have suffered much worse racism and violence in Brazil than the vast majority of black Americans (you'd be surprised at how many people think the "Latin"-looking Brazilians are the majority of the population, instead of the blacks - that's largely because the vast majority of black Brazilians grow up poor, and are never rich enough to travel or attain publicly visible positions, and thus represent Brazil to the world). So far, the only other fighter you have pointed to who has made a claim of bullying (and even then hasn't ascribed it to racism) is DJ.

And again: please give clear examples of where the UFC have demonstrably treated him so differently as to warrant these accusations, because so far I'm not seeing much. And I say this not as a white person looking to dismiss a POC's experiences of suffering out of hand, I'm speaking as a mixed POC with my own experiences of racism; race and discrimination has always been at the centre of my political awareness and reasoning, and I have made sure to educate myself, and keep educating myself, on the issues that affect all POC. We live in a skewed world where the white establishment is able to point to minority examples and paint them as emblematic of the majority, without suffering the same in response. I have seen people plainly play the race card in front of me (and I include many other ethnicities in that, not just blacks), and it aggravates me because it has taken a lot of struggle to get society to the point where it doesn't just dismiss legitimate POC concerns.

HOWEVER: I am not dismissing your point out of hand. Someone else made a very good point earlier which does give significant credence to Woodley's claim, which is that the vast majority of black American fighters in MMA are from collegiate backgrounds, meaning that, whilst they will have obviously experienced racism and suffered as a result, they won't have experienced it to the degree Woodley has. Consequently, there is a good chance that the reason why they have no reason to accuse the UFC of racism is because they've not made the UFC uncomfortable at any time, that they've decided to play the system and make their money while the making's good; conversely, in this case, Woodley could very well be the first man from the ghetto to make them truly uncomfortable, holding up a mirror to the UFC's hypocrisy.

I'd say that there's a whole lot goes on that fans aren't privy to. We don't know the half of what goes on behind the scenes, do we? I've had that said to me by UK-born fighters who've spent time in the UFC on more than one occasion.

It's also worth mentioning that many UFC fighters have seen the examples made of certain fighters who speak out against them for any number of reasons, and most likely simply choose not to because of the hassle they'd get.

Even Woodley is now fighting an uphill battle to get any kind of respect or support from the UFC. As soon as he puts in a performance that doesn't have the drunken fans throwing devil horns and hollering between rounds the President of the company is all over him, criticising his performance and basically telling him (via the media, of course) that the big fight he was in line for has been snatched away. Why? Because he's the fucking boss and he can do what he wants. Do you honestly think he'd have reacted the same way if McGregor had performed in that manner to get a win against a dangerous opponent?

Tamura's response above is a classic example of how MMA fans in general view Woodley's complaints by the way. As much as I'm critical of MMA fans I didn't think we'd see someone peddling that kind of shite on this forum. Usually we're better than that. 

[Carbomb]

14 minutes ago, David said:

I'd say that there's a whole lot goes on that fans aren't privy to. We don't know the half of what goes on behind the scenes, do we? I've had that said to me by UK-born fighters who've spent time in the UFC on more than one occasion.

It's also worth mentioning that many UFC fighters have seen the examples made of certain fighters who speak out against them for any number of reasons, and most likely simply choose not to because of the hassle they'd get.

Even Woodley is now fighting an uphill battle to get any kind of respect or support from the UFC. As soon as he puts in a performance that doesn't have the drunken fans throwing devil horns and hollering between rounds the President of the company is all over him, criticising his performance and basically telling him (via the media, of course) that the big fight he was in line for has been snatched away. Why? Because he's the fucking boss and he can do what he wants. Do you honestly think he'd have reacted the same way if McGregor had performed in that manner to get a win against a dangerous opponent? 

Your first point is absolutely valid. Agreed 100%.

Your second point, I've already addressed: we know that UFC are already cunts as a company. It doesn't necessarily indicate racism, because they treat all fighters who stand up for themselves like shit. This is a company that includes as part of their contracts a clause that says they have the rights to a fighter's fucking name and appearance, for fuck's sake.

Your McGregor point - sorry, David, but you set your stall out years ago concerning McGregor, and you've recently got the bit back between your teeth regarding the issue about "making noise and making more money", so this just comes across as part of your "campaign". Of course McGregor wouldn't have got shit from Dana with that kind of performance, because he's already made the UFC a shit-ton of money. Do you honestly think McGregor would be where he is now if he'd conducted his career in the same way Woodley has conducted his? And do you think Dana would've given Woodley shit for a bad performance if Woodley had conducted his career like McGregor has his, and made a shit-ton of money for the UFC?

EDIT: Sorry, a supplemental: I'm not saying it's a given that a black fighter gets just as easy a ride from the UFC as white fighters, but you could've chosen a much better example than McGregor, who is pretty much exceptional to most rules regarding MMA promotion nowadays.

[jimufctna24]

1 minute ago, Carbomb said:

Your second point, I've already addressed: we know that UFC are already cunts as a company. It doesn't necessarily indicate racism, because they treat all fighters who stand up for themselves like shit. This is a company that includes as part of their contracts a clause that says they have the rights to a fighter's fucking name and appearance, for fuck's sake.

Spot on. 

I wouldn't be surprised if something leaked out about UFC staffers making racist comments. However, when it comes to their business practice, they are indiscriminate. Make them money and play the game, and you will be Dana's adopted son. Don't play the game and speak out against the company, and you will be about as popular with them as a fart in the wind. 

[David]

3 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Your McGregor point - sorry, David, but you set your stall out years ago concerning McGregor, and you've recently got the bit back between your teeth regarding the issue about "making noise and making more money", so this just comes across as part of your "campaign". Of course McGregor wouldn't have got shit from Dana with that kind of performance, because he's already made the UFC a shit-ton of money. Do you honestly think McGregor would be where he is now if he'd conducted his career in the same way Woodley has conducted his? And do you think Dana would've given Woodley shit for a bad performance if Woodley had conducted his career like McGregor has his, and made a shit-ton of money for the UFC?

Honestly? I don't think Woodley could have conducted his career like McGregor has and seen the same results. I'm no fan of Mayweather, but when he said in the build up to his bout with Conor that McGregor was essentially carrying out the same gimmick as he did for years, but the only difference is that the US public for the most part view a mouthy black guy who shows off his wealth differently to how they view a mouthy white guy doing the same, I think he was right to an extent.

It'll be interesting to see how Kevin Lee's career pans out, as he's pretty much the black Conor at the moment. Same sharp dressing, same quick mouth, same arrogance. Will he be viewed the same by the fans? or by the company? Will we see him being considered cool, smart and "playing the game" or will he be looked at as an arrogant prick who fans will love to see lose and put back in his place?

Also, if you recall Jon Jones had made the UFC a shitload of cash, and look at the way he was treated when he declined to face Chael Sonnen on short notice when Hendo fell out of the card. 

Dana stood in front of the media and claimed that no one likes Jones, that he was disgusted with him, that Jones was selfish and that he was directly responsible for other fighters not being able to put food on their families tables. He also called him a liar.

You're talking about a guy who was at the pinnacle of the sport, a world champion and possibly one of the greatest ever at that point. Treated like absolute shite because he refused to accept a change of opponent with three days training left to prepare.

[Tamura]

43 minutes ago, David said:

Tamura's response above is a classic example of how MMA fans in general view Woodley's complaints by the way. As much as I'm critical of MMA fans I didn't think we'd see someone peddling that kind of shite on this forum. Usually we're better than that. 

Why? Because I deal with evidence and cold, hard, facts instead of cowardly hiding behind "We don't know the half of what goes on behind the scenes" which conveniently negates the need for evidence?

Woodley says:

Quote

Who’s the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world? Demetrious Johnson. African-American male- completely a Tasmanian Devil. Why doesn’t he have the big endorsements? Why isn’t he making the most money? What’s the difference?

Does it really need to be spelled out that simply being the best pound-for-pound fighter in the world doesn't mean you get paid the most money? The fact is that, for whatever reason, Mighty Mouse is a box office failure despite his fighting ability. Thus it logically follows that he won't get the big endorsements because he isn't a box office success and/or a household name. This isn't rocket science, and has nothing to do with race. The NFL's #1 draft pick in 2012 was white man Andrew Luck, yet he didn't get many endorsements compared to the #2 draft pick Robert Griffin III, who is black. So "black people don't get endorsements compared to white people" is a non-starter. 

http://www.espn.com/blog/playbook/dollars/post/_/id/1262/how-luck-rg3-match-up-in-endorsements

Woodley says:

Quote

Think about it- the second Jon Jones slips on a banana peel and do something- now he’s his own worst enemy- but, they can’t wait to throw him under the bus, but people of different races are given so many chances

Please provide an example of a white (or other non-black race) fighter who did something similar to Jones (for the sake of clarity I refer to his hit-and-run incident) and received preferential treatment from the UFC? The doping incident was out of the UFC's hands, unless you're suggesting that white (or other non-black race) fighters have received free passes on failed drug tests? 

https://www.mmamania.com/2016/11/11/13599836/dana-white-jon-jones-will-never-headline-another-ufc-event-again-mma

Dana White said Jones would never headline another UFC card again, yet he's headlined both shows he's appeared on since his return. Was he not given another chance? Clearly he was! Jon Jones is black and is (or possibly was) a big star making lots of money. Ditto Anderson Silva. Perhaps the UFC fans you choose to stereotype are willing to support a black Brazilian fighter but not a black American fighter? The fact that those same fans are the ones that chant "USA" during any match involving an American versus a foreigner would tend to suggest otherwise. That Woodley and Mighty Mouse aren't making the same amount of money as other fighters isn't down to the colour of their skin, but their lack of box office success. Their lack of box office succcess can't be attributed to the colour of their skin either, as Jon Jones and Anderson Silva show. 

The only peddling of shite is done by you. Carry on trying to accuse me of racism though, the fact I have an anti-fascist tattoo and have spent years fighting boneheads on the streets of this country would suggest you're not on particularly firm ground with your argument, which is a common theme.

[wandshogun09]

Rampage used to say there was racism behind the scenes in the UFC as well. 

It might well be true. The problem for me is, Rampage used to moan about everything. And Woodley has a habit of it as well. That makes it difficult to know when there's a real issue or when it's a case of venting out of frustration and maybe saying something you might not necessarily have meant. 

Woodley's recent appearance on the MMA Hour just after UFC 214, I thought a lot of what he said was hard to disagree with. But in general I find him so abrasive and contrary most of the time. Even when he's not accusing people of racism he often comes across so arsey it's like he's impossible not to offend. Even on the slightest thing. I remember a reporter asking him a question at a post-fight press conference, think it was after the first Wonderboy fight, and he said something like 'It seemed to take you a while to get going but you came on strong later in the fight. Was there any reason for that?' A standard question most fighters would get. And Woodley replied with a sarcastic 'Who starts fast against Wonderboy?' and all that. I mean, his actual point was valid but it's the way he says things sometimes that I think makes him a hard guy to warm to. The guy wasn't being a dick in how he asked the question or anything. He was just asking Woodley to go into some details on why the fight went as it did. It's like Woodley goes in actively looking for things to be offended by. He was on Matt Serra's podcast once saying that when people say he fades late in fights, that that's down to racism as well. I mean, fuck me. 

That's not to trivialise racism or even to say he hasn't experienced it from UFC staff at all. But at the same time, not everything or everyone is racist either. You can dislike a black fighter for reasons that don't involve skin colour at all. I don't think it's fair to imply that someone must be racist if their critical of Tyron Woodley or anyone else unless there's evidence to suggest there is actually racist motives behind it. A lot of the time with Woodley, the things and treatment he's complaining about don't seem to have any link to racism to me, and it's stuff you can find examples of with any fighters who didn't just roll over for Dana and the UFC top bollocks. There are black fighters who I love and loathe just like there are Latino and Asian and white examples of the same thing. Not one bit of it is about race for me. And I don't get the impression that the people criticising Woodley on here are racist either. Woodley shouldn't be discriminated against because of his race. That's a given. It's disgusting. But he also shouldn't be immune from any criticism because people are going to get labelled a filthy racist either. When you keep accusing or implying something as serious and vile as racism, it just makes it harder for people when they are genuinely a victim of it. It seems to be the first thing Woodley jumps to. That's my issue with the 'race card' thing. 

[David]

10 minutes ago, Tamura said:

The only peddling of shite is done by you. Carry on trying to accuse me of racism though, the fact I have an anti-fascist tattoo and have spent years fighting boneheads on the streets of this country would suggest you're not on particularly firm ground with your argument, which is a common theme.

I didn't accuse you of being a racist, I accused you of being a bit dim. There's a difference, and no amount of dumb, childish tattoos will change that fact.

[David]

Just now, wandshogun09 said:

Rampage used to say there was racism behind the scenes in the UFC as well. 

It might well be true. The problem for me is, Rampage used to moan about everything. And Woodley has a habit of it as well. That makes it difficult to know when there's a real issue or when it's a case of venting out of frustration and maybe saying something you might not necessarily have meant. 

Woodley's recent appearance on the MMA Hour just after UFC 214, I thought a lot of what he said was hard to disagree with. But in general I find him so abrasive and contrary most of the time. Even when he's not accusing people of racism he often comes across so arsey it's like he's impossible not to offend. Even on the slightest thing. I remember a reporter asking him a question at a post-fight press conference, think it was after the first Wonderboy fight, and he said something like 'It seemed to take you a while to get going but you came on strong later in the fight. Was there any reason for that?' A standard question most fighters would get. And Woodley replied with a sarcastic 'Who starts fast against Wonderboy?' and all that. I mean, his actual point was valid but it's the way he says things sometimes that I think makes him a hard guy to warm to. The guy wasn't being a dick in how he asked the question or anything. He was just asking Woodley to go into some details on why the fight went as it did. It's like Woodley goes in actively looking for things to be offended by. He was on Matt Serra's podcast once saying that when people say he fades late in fights, that that's down to racism as well. I mean, fuck me. 

That's not to trivialise racism or even to say he hasn't experienced it from UFC staff at all. But at the same time, not everything or everyone is racist either. You can dislike a black fighter for reasons that don't involve skin colour at all. I don't think it's fair to imply that someone must be racist if their critical of Tyron Woodley or anyone else unless there's evidence to suggest there is actually racist motives behind it. A lot of the time with Woodley, the things and treatment he's complaining about don't seem to have any link to racism to me, and it's stuff you can find examples of with any fighters who didn't just roll over for Dana and the UFC top bollocks. There are black fighters who I love and loathe just like there are Latino and Asian and white examples of the same thing. Not one bit of it is about race for me. And I don't get the impression that the people criticising Woodley on here are racist either. Woodley shouldn't be discriminated against because of his race. That's a given. It's disgusting. But he also shouldn't be immune from any criticism because people are going to get labelled a filthy racist either. When you keep accusing or implying something as serious and vile as racism, it just makes it harder for people when they are genuinely a victim of it. It seems to be the first thing Woodley jumps to. That's my issue with the 'race card' thing. 

Oh, absolutely. Woodley isn't the most likeable guy out there, that's for sure. But I just don't think that his points about racism can be laughed off just because he's a bit of a tit.

And for the record, I don't count anyone on this forum among those idiotic fans who laugh off such matters (aside from right-wing apologist Tamura, of course), I'm talking about MMA fans in general.

[Tamura]

1 minute ago, David said:

I didn't accuse you of being a racist, I accused you of being a bit dim. There's a difference, and no amount of dumb, childish tattoos will change that fact.

Your exact words were:

As much as I'm critical of MMA fans I didn't think we'd see someone peddling that kind of shite on this forum. Usually we're better than that. 

I hate to break the news to you people who are "a bit dim" are ten-a-penny on forums, so "peddling that kind of shite" would tend to suggest a wholly different meaning from the one you're now claiming.

[Carbomb]

38 minutes ago, David said:

Honestly? I don't think Woodley could have conducted his career like McGregor has and seen the same results. I'm no fan of Mayweather, but when he said in the build up to his bout with Conor that McGregor was essentially carrying out the same gimmick as he did for years, but the only difference is that the US public for the most part view a mouthy black guy who shows off his wealth differently to how they view a mouthy white guy doing the same, I think he was right to an extent.

It'll be interesting to see how Kevin Lee's career pans out, as he's pretty much the black Conor at the moment. Same sharp dressing, same quick mouth, same arrogance. Will he be viewed the same by the fans? or by the company? Will we see him being considered cool, smart and "playing the game" or will he be looked at as an arrogant prick who fans will love to see lose and put back in his place?

Also, if you recall Jon Jones had made the UFC a shitload of cash, and look at the way he was treated when he declined to face Chael Sonnen on short notice when Hendo fell out of the card. 

Dana stood in front of the media and claimed that no one likes Jones, that he was disgusted with him, that Jones was selfish and that he was directly responsible for other fighters not being able to put food on their families tables. He also called him a liar.

You're talking about a guy who was at the pinnacle of the sport, a world champion and possibly one of the greatest ever at that point. Treated like absolute shite because he refused to accept a change of opponent with three days training left to prepare.

First point: I agree, but now we're talking about the public, not the UFC here. And yes, the US public is, in my opinion, racist for the most part; the response to Mayweather and the response to McGregor were completely different, and I think that's mostly down to racism, even before we take Mayweather's wife-beating into account. That said, I can't speak for anyone else, but even without the wife-beating (and trust me, that's the main reason why I'll never support Mayweather no matter whom he's facing), another reason I like McGregor more than Mayweather is because McGregor's funny. Doesn't sound like a lot, but it's actually significant - being funny makes a huge difference between being totally unlikable by everybody to being popular with at least a bigger chunk of people than before. Just look at Muhammad Ali. Mayweather just flaunts his cash and that's about it. And before you say it: you may not find McGregor funny or witty, but a lot of people do.

Kevin Lee isn't the black Conor, though. The reason why he's getting backlash is because he's coming across painfully obviously as Poundshop Conor, and he's not even funny. And even if I were to entertain this comparison, I'd simply say: look at Derrick Lewis. A powerful but limited fighter who's had more opportunities than his skill level probably warrants, because he's cut promos, behaved like a madman, and shown a likeable personality, definitely not like Conor. 

Again, you really should use a better example than Conor, because as I've said already, he's an exceptional person regardless of race, and I think you're only choosing him because you've been dead-set against him from Day One, despite the few occasions you've backed him. You've made it clear you don't like him, you've made it clear you don't like his approach, you've made it abundantly clear that you think everything should be conducted as a pure sport, so sorry: you've queered your pitch as far as Conor is concerned.

Best comparison I would draw is GSP, quite frankly. Now, would a black fighter who's displayed GSP's level of ability but similar, alternatingly interesting and uninteresting fighting style, and relatively anodyne personality have gotten the same level of opportunity, exposure, pay, popularity, etc.? I don't believe so. In this case, I do think there is racism at play, and that is definitely something worth discussing.

As to Jon Jones, again: Dana is an utter cock. Regardless of what I think of Jones as a person, you will hear no disagreement from me regarding Dana's treatment of fighters in general, but yet again: Dana is an utter cock, and UFC are cunts who treat fighters like cattle, but that's only an indication of cuntery towards everyone in general, and not specifically of racism. I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this point. 

 

EDIT: It's occurred to me that, in the course of this debate, something has become unclear here, so I'd like to clarify it. 

David, despite the debates we have (and you know I think you contribute much of value to this forum), I am glad we are having this debate, and that you are taking the position you are. It tells me that you are a genuinely decent man, that you understand the politics of what we're discussing, that you haven't fallen for the bullshit. I am glad to have someone like you on our side. I am only arguing in opposition in this particular instance, and not for the usual reasons given by apologists as I've said. Any other issue, you would see me arguing right alongside you.