Who is the GOAT?

[David]

So, you reckon if GSP was emerging today he'd face the same issues that the likes of Demetrious Johnson does? Or Tyron Woodley?

[jimufctna24]

2 minutes ago, David said:

So, you reckon if GSP was emerging today he'd face the same issues that the likes of Demetrious Johnson does? Or Tyron Woodley?

I don't think he would be as big a star. He wouldn't have the rivalry with Hughes or the exposure on TUF.

I still think he would be a decent draw, and probably the most acclaimed fighter in the game. 

[ColinBollocks]

GSP is an underrated babyface. He knew/knows exactly how to play the role to get the most money. He's said plenty of times after fights it was all showbiz (annoyingly). Hughes to Koscheck to Hardy to Diaz, GSP was very lucky to have such naturally polarising opponents, but he more than held his own.

Anyway, Woodley is catching shit for a number of reasons, whether that be because people really seem to dislike him, or they're dirty racists. While he won his last two fights (more than fair enough), there was a serious lack of offensive output, which made for a super dull "fight". Tactically, you can't fuck with it, but I don't think GSP ever put on a performance with so little in the way offense, as Woodley did. It's why it's hard to really compare; GSP is beloved, while Woodley isn't.

[lambyUK]

1 hour ago, David said:

The lack of title defences? You mean his lack of any title defences, surely?

Pretty much the same thing really David.

What Mcgregor lacks in title defences, he more than makes up for it in his achievements in terms of titles in multiple organisations, finish rate of opponents, excitement of his style of fighting, his drawing ability and everything that he's done for the sport by getting it the mainstream attention no other fighter has ever achieved.

I need to stress that I don't necessarily think he's THE greatest as its ridiculously hard to judge but I think there's definitely more to the argument fighter x defended the belt more than fighter y.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, Woodley will swear it's racism, and it might be for some, but he's simply not as likeable as GSP is. He's constantly fucking whinging about something and seems to have this thing where he's always the victim. Now Dana was a cunt post-UFC 214. It was the one time where I was actually in agreement with Woodley. But at the same time, the fight was shit. It happens. No big deal. Last year he KO'd Robbie Lawler in a minute and stole the show with Wonderboy on the most stacked UFC ever. This year he's had 2 stinkers. It just goes that way sometimes and Dana was a shit about it. 

But Woodley is a hard guy to like and for me it's not even 0% about the colour of his skin. It's every bit to do with him being a sour faced, whinging fuck a lot of the time. He probably pulls a mean face when he's getting a blowjob, for fuck's sake. I'd have no problem with him being a grumpy cunt if he wasn't also crowbarring the race card into everything. I like a grumpy badass fighter. Fuck, my favourite of all time is Pride Wanderlei! But no-one likes a guy who just constantly bitches about everything. In general, I like watching him fight and I think the criticism on that front has been harsh. But I completely get why people would find it hard to warm to him.

I guess it's easier for Woodley to tell himself 'they hate me because I'm black' than 'they hate me because I'm a miserable whiny twatface'. 

[David]

50 minutes ago, lambyUK said:

Pretty much the same thing really David.

What Mcgregor lacks in title defences, he more than makes up for it in his achievements in terms of titles in multiple organisations, finish rate of opponents, excitement of his style of fighting, his drawing ability and everything that he's done for the sport by getting it the mainstream attention no other fighter has ever achieved.

I need to stress that I don't necessarily think he's THE greatest as its ridiculously hard to judge but I think there's definitely more to the argument fighter x defended the belt more than fighter y.

McGregor hasn't done enough in the cage to warrant being in the discussion in my opinion. Yes, he's won two belts, but he hasn't defended either of them. And if reports are correct it doesn't look as though he'll be facing a top contender in his next fight either. Being GOAT in a competitive sport takes more than drawing power. that may matter in pro wrestling, but not in actual sports unfortunately.

Unless we want to throw Bob Sapp into the discussion as well? He was a fucking huge draw in his day.

Being the greatest of all time takes winning streaks, cleaning out divisions, winning titles, defending titles, being involved in bouts against the very best in your weight class on a constant basis.

McGregor may somehow reach that point, but he hasn't at the moment in my opinion.

49 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

Yeah, Woodley will swear it's racism, and it might be for some, but he's simply not as likeable as GSP is. He's constantly fucking whinging about something and seems to have this thing where he's always the victim. Now Dana was a cunt post-UFC 214. It was the one time where I was actually in agreement with Woodley. But at the same time, the fight was shit. It happens. No big deal. Last year he KO'd Robbie Lawler in a minute and stole the show with Wonderboy on the most stacked UFC ever. This year he's had 2 stinkers. It just goes that way sometimes and Dana was a shit about it. 

But Woodley is a hard guy to like and for me it's not even 0% about the colour of his skin. It's every bit to do with him being a sour faced, whinging fuck a lot of the time. He probably pulls a mean face when he's getting a blowjob, for fuck's sake. I'd have no problem with him being a grumpy cunt if he wasn't also crowbarring the race card into everything. I like a grumpy badass fighter. Fuck, my favourite of all time is Pride Wanderlei! But no-one likes a guy who just constantly bitches about everything. In general, I like watching him fight and I think the criticism on that front has been harsh. But I completely get why people would find it hard to warm to him.

I guess it's easier for Woodley to tell himself 'they hate me because I'm black' than 'they hate me because I'm a miserable whiny twatface'. 

Thing is Wand, it was a big deal because Dana made it a big deal. He essentially told the world that Woodley wouldn't be getting the money fight because he decided that he was boring. Julius fucking Caesar of MMA is what he is, standing cageside giving each performance the thumbs up or the thumbs down.

Two of the best fighters in the game today in Woodley and Johnson, two champions. And two guys who get shat on constantly by the brass at the UFC. And both of them are African Americans. Meanwhile, the two fighters that the UFC throw their weight behind and make into stars are white.

I've long said that if Woodley were a boxer he'd be a fucking huge star.

You can kinda understand why some people feel the way they do.

[Carbomb]

I wouldn't say DJ has been "constantly" shat on - it's only comparatively recently that's happened, after years of chugging along fine. And there have been other black champions who've been absolutely fine and given opportunities and exposure. 

As a POC, I can't stand Woodley for his race-baiting, because it trivialises the real oppression that other black people go through. 

Dana was an absolute cunt in the wake of 214, though. I said it at the time on here too, but he needs to fucking promote his fighters - that's his fucking job. That whole thing about how fighters need to promote themselves? So what the fuck is he being paid for? Don't call yourself a promoter if you're not going to promote; just call yourself an organiser or a middle man.

[David]

3 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

I wouldn't say DJ has been "constantly" shat on - it's only comparatively recently that's happened, after years of chugging along fine. And there have been other black champions who've been absolutely fine and given opportunities and exposure. 

As a POC, I can't stand Woodley for his race-baiting, because it trivialises the real oppression that other black people go through. 

Dana was an absolute cunt in the wake of 214, though. I said it at the time on here too, but he needs to fucking promote his fighters - that's his fucking job. That whole thing about how fighters need to promote themselves? So what the fuck is he being paid for? Don't call yourself a promoter if you're not going to promote; just call yourself an organiser or a middle man.

DJ said this when he addressed the recent Borg/TJ thing;

Quote

This is typical of the unfulfilled promises and bullying that has gone on through my UFC career.

That doesn't sound like a guy who's been chugging along fine.

[Carbomb]

I didn't hear about that. That is really shit.

Either way, though, there have been other black champions and contenders who haven't had undeserved grief from either the fans or management. 

[Keith Houchen]

But haven't they all been "Characters" to some degree? Derek Lewis is a great example, he is loved because of his persona. 

[jimufctna24]

There's no denying that MMA fans can be racist cunts. The ugly reaction to Rashad knocking out Chuck in Atlanta wasn't a lifetime ago. Neither were the racist slurs barked at Anderson Silva when he fought Lee Murray in Cage Rage. I am also aware that Woodley was harassed on twitter with racist comments (probably shit-eating trolls)

However, I don't think you can accuse the UFC of being racist. Some of the UFC's best fighters have been black, and the UFC promotional machine has fully embraced them. Roger Huerta was a Mexican fighter who the UFC saw dollar signs in partially based on his ethnic background. Huerta's career did not pan out as well as UFC's bigwigs hoped, but he was very much the company's chosen one for a brief time. 

Dana is a fucking clown, who I have little time for. However, he'll promote anyone if he thinks they will make him a quick buck. Just like he'll turn on anyone who doesn't see things his way. I don't think Woodley and D.J struggle to strike a chord due to their race. T.J Dillashaw hardly set box office records as Champion. Neither did the UFC really get their promotional machine behind him in any significant way. 

I think it's simply a case of Woodley and D.J not connecting with the wider audience, and the UFC promotional machine running out of fresh ideas. It happens. Andre Ward is arguably the world's best boxer at present time, yet he's hardly a box office sensation. As Carl Froch likes to remind us (on a personal note, I really enjoy watching Ward fight) 

 

[Supremo]

I don't think you can compare GSP to Mighty Mouse at all. Sure, he wasn't throwing water bottles or whatever, but when he was on top GSP was absolutely playing the game to sell those wolf tickets. He'd talk fights up like a champion, portraying the white meat babyface perfectly. It helped that he had such great opponents, but he more than held his own. Even at its most unnatural, like his, "I'm not impressed by your performance," line to Hughes, it still somehow worked thanks to his weird charisma. He jumped right back on the horse with that press conference with Bisping, too. He totally gets it and plays his part, proving there's more than one way to sell a fight. By contrast, you've got DJ, who mainly just whinges about everything, whilst refusing to play the game at all. They couldn't be more different.

[David]

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

Either way, though, there have been other black champions and contenders who haven't had undeserved grief from either the fans or management. 

So, Woodley's claims would only be valid if the company were racist to all other black fighters and champions?

[Carbomb]

18 minutes ago, David said:

So, Woodley's claims would only be valid if the company were racist to all other black fighters and champions?

If the company (and fans, because he's also chucked it at them) had demonstrated a less favourable attitude towards numerous other black fighters and champions, that would be a stronger indication of racism. As it is, out of the myriad of black fighters who have fought for the UFC, only two so far have complained about bullying, and one of them has done it so regularly at even the slightest hint of disfavour that it comes across as playing the race card, and I say that as someone who is usually disgusted by white people who claim that on a regular basis. They showed extreme leniency to Jon Jones, who has done more to warrant exclusion than any fighter currently on their roster. Rashad Evans, Daniel Cormier, Jose Aldo, Anderson Silva, Rampage Jackson, Yoel Romero, Jacare, Uriah Hall, Derrick Lewis, Francis Ngannou, and numerous others haven't given any indication that they've suffered racism at the hands of Dana or the fans.

So far, right now, until others reveal anything else, the only conclusion I can draw is that they think Woodley's a dick, and that they have a low opinion of DJ as a fighter who draws (which is a shitty, cuntish attitude to have, but it doesn't necessarily indicate racism). This does not mean that I think it's an absolute certainty that they're not racist, nor would I be overly surprised to find out that they were, but until there's more to go on, I am not going to think they're racist just because Woodley says so, and I say this as someone who, as I mentioned before, hates when white people claim that black people who denounce racism are usually "playing the race card". In fact, it's because of behaviour like Woodley's that I am loth to give credence to his claims, because it's irresponsible, it trivialises when black people suffer demonstrable and visible oppression, and it makes it easier for racist (or at best apathetic) whites to claim that the race card is indeed being played, weakening real claims of racism in the eyes of the public. Things are difficult enough right now for POC with the world seemingly taking a lurch to the fucking far right without Tyron bloody Woodley adding fuel to the fire. 

[David]

32 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

If the company (and fans, because he's also chucked it at them) had demonstrated a less favourable attitude towards numerous other black fighters and champions, that would be a stronger indication of racism. As it is, out of the myriad of black fighters who have fought for the UFC, only two so far have complained about bullying, and one of them has done it so regularly at even the slightest hint of disfavour that it comes across as playing the race card, and I say that as someone who is usually disgusted by white people who claim that on a regular basis. They showed extreme leniency to Jon Jones, who has done more to warrant exclusion than any fighter currently on their roster. Rashad Evans, Daniel Cormier, Jose Aldo, Anderson Silva, Rampage Jackson, Yoel Romero, Jacare, Uriah Hall, Derrick Lewis, Francis Ngannou, and numerous others haven't given any indication that they've suffered racism at the hands of Dana or the fans.

So far, right now, until others reveal anything else, the only conclusion I can draw is that they think Woodley's a dick, and that they have a low opinion of DJ as a fighter who draws (which is a shitty, cuntish attitude to have, but it doesn't necessarily indicate racism). This does not mean that I think it's an absolute certainty that they're not racist, nor would I be overly surprised to find out that they were, but until there's more to go on, I am not going to think they're racist just because Woodley says so, and I say this as someone who, as I mentioned before, hates when white people claim that black people who denounce racism are usually "playing the race card". In fact, it's because of behaviour like Woodley's that I am loth to give credence to his claims, because it's irresponsible, it trivialises when black people suffer demonstrable and visible oppression, and it makes it easier for racist (or at best apathetic) whites to claim that the race card is indeed being played, weakening real claims of racism in the eyes of the public. Things are difficult enough right now for POC with the world seemingly taking a lurch to the fucking far right without Tyron bloody Woodley adding fuel to the fire. 

If you've followed Woodley on Twitter you'd see that there is pretty regular incidents of casual racism fired his way by fans. Like it or not, MMA tends to, in the main, attract a certain demographic. That demographic for the most part aren't the most enlightened types, especially in the US.

The UFC, like many companies over the years, are happy to show leniency and favouritism if the person involved makes them money. Just because they maybe like money more than they dislike mouthy, upstart African-Americans doesn't mean that Woodley doesn't have a point. As Conor would say, some of those guys dance a little bit better than Woodley does when the UFC asks them to.

When Woodley speaks up about how he's being treated he's called a whiny bitch and a complainer. When Nate Diaz does it, or Conor McGregor does it, they're considered smart and playing the game the correct way. Go figure.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, in any other mainstream sport an athlete with the ability of Tyron Woodley is a big fucking deal. He's a main event player. At the very least the team or league he's in are pushing him to the hilt. 

The response of Dana White to Woodley's racism claims spoke volumes in my opinion. Imagine if such claims had been made about the owner of an NFL or NBA franchise? They'd go to great lengths to deny the claims.

White's response? He's a smart guy, but he's a drama queen.

That's how you respond to accusations of racism in 2017? Seriously?

And his response to Woodley's claim that he isn't being promoted properly? If he played the game, didn't kick up a fuss, and carried the attitude of "I'll fight anyone, any time, anywhere" he'd be a huge star by now.

In other words, shut the fuck up, do what you're told, fight when we tell you to and be fucking happy you're getting the chance to fight for us at all. Do that, and we'll do our job and promote you.

At the end of the day, when you have an actual African American athlete who's privy to the inner workings of the company to an extent that fans aren't telling us that he feels he's been treated differently due to the colour of his skin by the owners, who are predominantly middle-aged white billionaires, i'm gonna probably believe that said African American man has been around the block a few times and knows a thing or two about the subject matter.

When you throw in the fact that the dude in question was born and raised in Ferguson, Missouri you'd like to think he has half a clue what the fuck he's on about, and most likely isn't going to be throwing the racist card around just because he's feeling slighted.

But hey, maybe Woodley is just a moany bitch on his period who's imagining himself as a victim of racism? Maybe.