CZW TOD **SPOILERS**

[iPumaPants]

38 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

 Is twatting each other with light bulbs and barbed wire any stupider than Shibata headbutting his way to a bleed on the brain whilst wrestling "Strong Style"? Not really, but doing either of those things in your grannies back yard for a few hundred dollars is not a great idea.

Shibata was stupid. Pure and simple. "Strong Style" doesn't mean battering the shit out of each other. Kenny Omega was recently quoted saying that a lot of new wrestlers are just hitting each other and it's not the right way. If you watch Okada vs Omega, there's no way they're just cracking each other with knees, because there's no way either man walks away from that. It's an art, and a great one at that. Shibata legitimately headbutting people is ridiculous, and should never have been a thing.

However...Look at the stage on which it's performed. NJPW in Osaka in front of 12,000, getting paid a decent wage...Someone's back garden or a beaten down warehouse that's dirty, for not nearly enough money for the risk involved. A few hundred dollars doesn't quite cut it when you've got a staph infection or hepatitis. 

I understand that some people enjoy it, and it's their thing, and it's a goal of some to win TOD, but it's a ridiculous concept with ridiculous outcomes. Nobody should be slashing themselves up like that for the sake of "being a wrestler". I remember watching Best of the Best 2 (M Dogg 20, BBoy, Ruckus, Fleisch and Storm etc) and being in awe. The wrestling side of it is a great thing to watch, and the match Jody and Jonny had was fantastic. Why not just be a wrestler? And it goes back to the point earlier that Jimmy Havoc is more than capable of an actual wrestling match with a decent story, without the weapons, blood, and stitches afterwards. So do that. Why risk your body for some taped together 'trophy'?

[Thunderplex]

2 hours ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

Tarring with a brush is one of the matches at next years TOD @Thunderplex but I guess we can count you out. 

 

 Is twatting each other with light bulbs and barbed wire any stupider than Shibata headbutting his way to a bleed on the brain whilst wrestling "Strong Style"? Not really, but doing either of those things in your grannies back yard for a few hundred dollars is not a great idea.

That genuinely made me laugh out loud, which is not good when sneaking a bit of viewing in work.

I'd rank it very similar.  The scars are just more visible.

[BomberPat]

The Shibata analogy is a good one, to be honest. Deathmatches aren't really my thing, but if we're talking in terms of wrestlers' health and wellbeing, getting dropped on your head all night is going to have longer lasting damage than gashing your head open, which will just leave a horrible scar.

Not saying it's more justifiable, but with deathmatches they're a lot more immediately, visually distressing, whereas something like the cumulative brain damage from shoot headbutting people or taking daft bumps doesn't result in a graphic photo of someone with their arm sliced open, so people think the latter is more dangerous.

 

As for Jimmy - it's something he's wanted to do for a while, he got the chance and he won the thing, fair play to him, even if it's not to my taste.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, lightningxlock said:

Wow, what's the story on this? I've only seen him a couple of times. 

http://wrestlingnews.co/other/wrestler-pulled-from-wwnlive-shows-after-naziwhite-power-photos-surface-online/

[Egg Shen]

32 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The Shibata analogy is a good one, to be honest. Deathmatches aren't really my thing, but if we're talking in terms of wrestlers' health and wellbeing, getting dropped on your head all night is going to have longer lasting damage than gashing your head open, which will just leave a horrible scar.

Not saying it's more justifiable, but with deathmatches they're a lot more immediately, visually distressing, whereas something like the cumulative brain damage from shoot headbutting people or taking daft bumps doesn't result in a graphic photo of someone with their arm sliced open, so people think the latter is more dangerous.

 

 

Tomoaki Honma spent years as a deathmatch wrestler yet sustained a life altering injury in a standard wrestling match.

All forms of wrestling has it's risks, id say the strongstyle with high impact striking and moves focussed on dropping people on their necks is by far the most taxing on the body, especially long term.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Thunderplex said:

Calm down.  I didn't say I looked down on anyone, I just feel there must be an issue with someone who is happy slashing themselves up to that degree just to entertain people, risking personal injury along with the risk of disease.  Personally I don't look down on people with mental health issues, so don't tar me with that brush in future.

I am calm, like, I was just addressing the sneering in this thread in general. I quoted you because saying deathmatch wrestling seems a bit masochistic is like saying water seems a bit damp. All wrestling is masochistic. Every bump does damage. What have mental health issues got to do with anything? 

6 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

Nick Mondo's new film attempts to give some kind of reasoning as to why he wrestled the style he did. Its debuted at a film festivals so it should be available soon.

 

Very interested in seeing this, heard good things. Mondo seems like a very bright guy

[Tommy!]

Wrestling has reached an odd point. I read and hear a few people saying how hard it is to watch RR99 seeing the state Foley is in now, but he spent a lifetime doing stupid shit like that and he and the audience knew it at the time they watch Rock stove his head in. It's just overlooked by most until they see him struggling to walk or remember names and spitting his teeth out mid promo. 

The argument of which is more stupid in slashing yourself on glass in a field or headbutting yourself into a coma is like asking if you want cancer or aids. It's a stupid argument because both are stupid and detrimental to long term self preservation. 

The modern wrestling world is an odd one, in the frequency and extent of both things. The old days had people cutting themselves silly and legitimately punching each other in the face, but on a smaller scale, with more control and less frequently. 

In short, both stiffing each other and slashing an artery on a shard of glass in a field are mental, but they know the risks and opt to take them. I'll watch, but it doesn't excuse what is done or make it less worthwhile of ridicule. Neither does it make it better than actually working a wrestling match. 

[BomberPat]

In fairness, as daft as it sounds now, we didn't know precisely what the effect of long-term head trauma was then. We obviously knew it can't be good for you, but the likes of Foley made a career out of being able to take a beating, get back up, and seem fine. He talks in his first book about taking a spot from Vader that he almost wanted to end his career in WCW, and coming away with no injuries because his body was "used to the punishment". That's as maybe, mate, but your body's hardly thanking you for it now, is it? It's only post-Benoit that people have really started looking at the cumulative effect of that sort of thing.

I'm not sure I agree about frequency and severity, either. Obviously stuff like Tournament of Death is an outlier - Harley Race and Jack Brisco weren't taking bumps on to barbed wire trampolines - but in terms of the amount of damage they were putting their bodies through, who knows? Most of the old-timers worked through injuries, and would have seen a concussion as something you sleep off and then get back in the ring the next day. They weren't taking huge head drops and dives to the floor, but they weren't exactly treating their bodies well either.

 

The main thing with Tournament of Death, or super stiff wrestling, is what people have said about the pay-off and so on. You'll get your Jimmy Havocs who want to be on this show as a point of pride, and the cash isn't really an issue, but it's the guys who do this sort of match, or the head-drop high spot "strong style" stuff on a nightly basis you have to question. I think a lot of guys work a particularly hard hitting style because they think that's what people want to see, but they can't prioritise. Working the indies, there's always this idea that maybe this show is the one that'll get you noticed, this will be your big break, so you try and get all your shit in on every single show. But that's not how it works, and the guys with any longevity in this industry are the ones who recognise that when you're only making £25 working in front of 30 people, you can probably leave out the Canadian Destroyer on the ring apron and the corkscrew moonsault to the floor, or the burning barbed wire whatever-the-fuck to the face.

Similarly with Strong Style - it's a gimmick, and in this case it is about frequency. I've spoken to guys who worked Japan, and one of them said that Misawa was pissed at him for working a headlock too tight. On house shows, it's all softly softly nicey nicey, it's only at the Dome, or when the cameras were on, that they'd turn it up a notch, because that's when it mattered.

There's a place in wrestling for just hitting a guy really bloody hard, so long as you do it as safely as possible, and that place is not every single match. Like all things in wrestling, less is more.

[Tommy!]

30 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

 

I'm not sure I agree about frequency and severity, either. Obviously stuff like Tournament of Death is an outlier - Harley Race and Jack Brisco weren't taking bumps on to barbed wire trampolines - but in terms of the amount of damage they were putting their bodies through, who knows? Most of the old-timers worked through injuries, and would have seen a concussion as something you sleep off and then get back in the ring the next day. They weren't taking huge head drops and dives to the floor, but they weren't exactly treating their bodies well either.

....... 

 

 

Quote

Similarly with Strong Style - it's a gimmick, and in this case it is about frequency. I've spoken to guys who worked Japan, and one of them said that Misawa was pissed at him for working a headlock too tight. On house shows, it's all softly softly nicey nicey, it's only at the Dome, or when the cameras were on, that they'd turn it up a notch, because that's when it mattered.

You misunderstand me, I wasn't talking of general working but working 'that style' of cutting for shock or as the basis of a gimmick . Back in the day you had people cutting themselves up, but as safe as they could and based on a risk vs return basis. 

Like wise you support my point that back in the day 'strong style' may have been softly softly when the TV wasn't on, but in these days so much is on YouTube and streaming, and you also have people travelling from indy to indy doing it for a DVD or stream with fans now expecting more and more as so much is so accessible in the modern age. 

In the end Muswa™ decapitated himself from the inside from years of headdrops IIRC. 

Post Chrispin Wah people may care about cumulative trauma more, they may know more, but it's underselling people to say 'we didn't know precisely what the effect of long-term head trauma was then'. There was enough evidence from boxing and pure common sense to know getting smashed in the head every Monday night isn't healthy.

Quote

but it's the guys who do this sort of match, or the head-drop high spot "strong style" stuff on a nightly basis you have to question. I think a lot of guys work a particularly hard hitting style because they think that's what people want to see, but they can't prioritise. Working the indies, there's always this idea that maybe this show is the one that'll get you noticed, this will be your big break, so you try and get all your shit in on every single show. But that's not how it works, and the guys with any longevity in this industry are the ones who recognise that when you're only making £25 working in front of 30 people, you can probably leave out the Canadian Destroyer on the ring apron and the corkscrew moonsault to the floor, or the burning barbed wire whatever-the-fuck to the face.[\quote] 

This is bang on though, and sadly this seems to be a rather large group in the 2002 onwards indy world. 

[BomberPat]

22 minutes ago, Tommy! said:

 

You misunderstand me, I wasn't talking of general working but working 'that style' of cutting for shock or as the basis of a gimmick . Back in the day you had people cutting themselves up, but as safe as they could and based on a risk vs return basis. 

True - I went off on a bit of a tangent there, as I tend to. And you're right, back in the day you'd never see anything like a CZW deathmatch. But even in CZW, these things aren't an every day occurrence, are they? (Genuine question, I only really have a working knowledge of the promotion)

Risk vs reward is definitely the key - you see some insane stuff back in the '70s and '80s that I'd be amazed to see a promotion try today; Jerry Lawler getting hit by a car, Jos LeDuc carving up his own arm with an axe, Roddy Piper smashing a beer bottle into his head, even Jim Cornette's fall from the scaffold. That stuff is almost, to me, just as alarming as a lot of stuff the likes of CZW are doing, but they always had purpose, they were always designed to sell a ticket.

 

22 minutes ago, Tommy! said:

Like wise you support my point that back in the day 'strong style' may have been softly softly when the TV wasn't on, but in these days so much is on YouTube and streaming, and you also have people travelling from indy to indy doing it for a DVD or stream with fans now expecting more and more as so much is so accessible in the modern age. 

In the end Muswa™ decapitated himself from the inside from years of headdrops IIRC. 

Post Chrispin Wah people may care about cumulative trauma more, they may know more, but it's underselling people to say 'we didn't know precisely what the effect of long-term head trauma was then'. There was enough evidence from boxing and pure common sense to know getting smashed in the head every Monday night isn't healthy.

I don't think the idea of Strong Style being softer when the TV's not on has changed, it's just that some workers aren't necessarily smart enough or, to go a bit dickhead-y, are too much of a mark for themselves, or for the style, to get that it's possible to tone it down from time to time, and that you don't have to give the fans everything on every show, just what the match at hand calls for. The first time Ishii wrestled for RevPro, I remember people complaining that he worked a "house show" match - they wanted the hard hitting strong style stuff, but it wasn't a big enough or important enough show for him to bother bringing it.

I think even travelling to different indies, working for DVDs or streaming, you don't need to go all-out all the time. Just learn what works, and save the big stuff. When I saw Penta 0M for Fight Club Pro, I was impressed by how much presence he had when he wasn't really doing anything - he felt important just standing in the ring, and was getting a better reaction just for removing his glove ahead of a chop than most wrestlers were getting for their biggest and best high spots. So, when he's capable of eliciting a response from doing so little, I question why he needs to then do a bunch of dives to the outside, head drops on the apron, and other crazy stuff that's cool to see, but clearly not necessary to get the crowd in his corner, particularly as it was a tournament, so he was working two matches that night.

Again I'm rambling, and in a lot of ways agreeing with you - but that's a couple of contrasting examples that come to mind; I think people just need to know to work smarter, and know that sometimes the fans are going to be happy to see you even if you're not dropping yourself on your head on The Hardest Part Of The Ring (tm).

 

I wasn't holding Misawa up as a good example, just that he was central to the anecdote! Here's a guy well known for working hard hitting, head drop-heavy matches, but with the cameras off, wanted to work so gingerly and lightly that he complained about a standard headlock during the International.

 

Perhaps it's underselling, but I genuinely don't think people considered it. It was a combination of lack of knowledge, the naivety to assume that just because the effects of something aren't immediate or long-lasting that they're not going to be an issue later in life, and probably a sprinkling of "it's all fake anyway".

[Thunderplex]

2 hours ago, sj5522 said:

I am calm, like, I was just addressing the sneering in this thread in general. I quoted you because saying deathmatch wrestling seems a bit masochistic is like saying water seems a bit damp. All wrestling is masochistic. Every bump does damage. What have mental health issues got to do with anything? 

Very interested in seeing this, heard good things. Mondo seems like a very bright guy

If you are going to have a bitch about sneering attitudes I'd quote a post written in a sneering manner if I was you.  Big difference in taking a trained bump and carving yourself or someone else up with a fucking light tube, that's where mental stability comes into it.

[Guest]

In the case of a Foley, do you think he'd change much about his career? He may be in discomfort but he built a legacy on going an extra mile. How would he be remembered and how often if he didn't fling himself off the cell? It's not like he was over like rover at that point as Mankind. He probably regrets the 99 Rumble like but otherwise? Self sacrifice will always be a significant aspect of wrestling, especially in a post-kayfabe world. We can strip away things which are just reckless like chairs to the head, headbutts, anything to the skull in general and that's for the best but going an extra mile in some way will always be in demand

As wise as I think it is for a wrestler to put character value and being fundamentally sound first without taking massive risks (eg. if I were to step in a ring, I would model myself on say, a Bobby Roode or someone of that ilk, and funnily enough that's what Foley mainly did post-cell bump) there seems to be an assumption every single human being wants to live to 90+ with children and grandchildren and a big garden. Some of us don't really give a toss about longevity, this is why we smoke fags, or drink loads or get fat - not everybody feels bad about this stuff and nor should they. I'd rather die young having forged a legacy that will be remembered, than old and forgotten. And however much they get paid/whether it's "worth it" your Nick Gage's and so on will live on with cult status. Our bodies breaking down are an inevitability even if you test pillow softness for a living. I'm contradicting myself slightly because I think if you HAVE had a child, it is then just unfair to continue to take years off your life, that's (1 reason) why I hope Bryan Danielson accepts his in-ring career is finished. But otherwise? Go nuts, relatively speaking 

33 minutes ago, Thunderplex said:

If you are going to have a bitch about sneering attitudes I'd quote a post written in a sneering manner if I was you.  Big difference in taking a trained bump and carving yourself or someone else up with a fucking light tube, that's where mental stability comes into it.

Only the first sentence was directed to you because I thought it was a redundant thing to say - I really wouldn't worry yourself too much about it, I still don't understand what you're trying to say though. Is Jimmy Havoc mentally ill then? Maybe someone should let him know. He'll have had his cuts cleaned and closed up and have been paid decently despite speculation in this thread and it will have bought him great personal pride. That's the important thing, that's why most of us go through training in the first place. I'm really sick of hearing about "being a mark for yourself" tbh. I understand it to a point but it's mainly being used to disparage people who choose to work a certain style. I've never heard anyone go "aye, that Kobashi, the stiff clown. What a mark for himself" 

[Egg Shen]

i put some of it down to being in the same category who self mutilate for whatever reason, it doesn't make sense to most. it's just different strokes for different folks.

[Tommy!]

43 minutes ago, sj5522 said:

In the case of a Foley, do you think he'd change much about his career? 

No, I wouldn't think so. I wouldn't want him to. My comment was trying to be that while some look back on it with pity or scorn now they were loving it at the time. It creates an environment where some of those people can't now overlook it in modern wrestlers while others and a new generation probably can. Couple that with a generation or group who do go all out all the time without a view of how they will get by past 45.

The other big thing to remember on Foley is he knew how to talk like few others and pace and work his mental bumps into a story when it was needed (not always as some Japanese stuff shows). 

If people are happy, be it Jimmy, Necro Butcher, that chap with the brain bleed,  Muswa™ as he struggled on in later years, Foley as he gets a migraine from the screen glare as he whacks off to diva nudes in an orthopaedic chair or anyone else I'm happy. I can enjoy watching it and they can enjoy doing it. I'm aware neither thing makes it smart business or for a healthy lifestyle but then they know that. Likewise I'm not going to stamp my feet and whinge if I don't see that shit, because it shouldn't happen as much as it does, which isn't something you can say for all fans sadly. 

Edit: for the record I don't think anyone is mentally ill, nor am I entering into such comments, insinuation or discussion. 

[Guest]

You putting boxers , or UFC fighters in this "mentally Ill" category? Some people just enjoy a scrap and pushing their pain threshold.