Jump to content

UFC 211: Miocic vs Dos Santos 2


wandshogun09

Who wins and how?   

19 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, ColinBollocks said:

As a legacy fight, it's huge for both men because Stipe winning means he's definitely in that "best ever" conversation (I think he's there already), but Cain winning solidifies his position as the greatest heavyweight ever.

I have a few reservations about Miocic already being in the "best ever" conversation. Firstly, it's all come around a bit quick. He beat Werdum, Overeem, and JDS all in the space of a calendar year (one day less in fact) It's a credit to him that he packed 3 wins into such a small space of time. However, it's still all a bit sudden. Before that, his best win was over a battle-worn Mark Hunt, and he was been beaten by Struve and JDS prior to that. I personally need a bit of time to digest his merits as one of the best ever. 

Also, Miocic doesn't seem unbeatable. Werdum fought like a twerp against him, and Overeem had him in trouble. He doesn't project the same aura that Fedor did after handling Nog in late 2004, or after beating Cro Cop in August of 2005. Cain had a similar aura after winning his rubber match against JDS. You could argue that Miocic has faced better opponents, but I would call that into question - especially in the case of Fedor.

Fedor faced a prime version of Cro Cop, and a version of Nog that was at his physical peak. Were JDS, Hunt, and Werdum at their respective bests when Miocic beat them? I don't think so. I would also say that the version of JDS that Cain mauled in their rematch was a more dangerous version than the one Miocic faced this past weekend. Heavyweight has always been a bit of a lottery. However, it feels that the element of chance has risen lately. I sometimes get the impression that on any given night, 4 or 5 fighters could easily become Champion, and not because the standard has improved. 

For now, I have Fedor in a tier of his own at the top of the Heavyweight mountain. If Miocic beats Cain, and perhaps adds another title defence - then I will review things. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 85
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Paid Members

I'm with Jim on this one. Stipe has a long way to go for me to prove he's up there with the greatest of all time. To elaborate on what Jim said, he doesn't seem unbeatable what so ever. His game to me seems flawed as well. 

Whilst he has decent wrestling and decent boxing, he always seems hittable. You never get the feeling that he's safe no matter the opponent. His hands are always down and I've never sat there thinking that his striking is on another level to that of other fighters in the heavyweight division.

I think Stipe is fortunate to be in an era where Velasquez can't stay fit and we have aging battered stars who can barely take a punch to the chin.

That said, if Stipe can get through a fit Cain, and then say beat the likes of the new beasts in Ngannu and possibly Lewis, then I could maybe start engaging in the conversation as best ever. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Paid Members

Forgot to mention, I loved DC on commentary again. Seriously, he's probably my favourite commentator these days. He doesn't always offer the in depth analysis like a Stann or Cruz might but he's good enough at that, he's likeable as fuck and he makes it more fun with his personality. The fact you can tell he's having the time of his life is infectious. You get the feeling it's not just a case of doing a job for him. He loves it and he's like a big kid getting to do his dream job. 

Another thing I liked about this show...no sodding Face The Pain intro. Lovely. Like a day off work when the sun's shining. I won't get my hopes up because they've left it off PPVs before and it's come back. But it was nice. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Paid Members

Yep, DC is superb on commentary. I'm loving this 3 man team dynamic and it's been so refreshing not hearing Mike Goldberg's cliched spiel. 

For me, DC is far better for the dynamic than Cruz, and whilst Cruz can break down a fight brilliantly, his voice is tedious to listen to. DC just has a less grating voice but also his emotional range is far superior.

What I don't like about about Cruz being in the current Rogan and Anik dynamic is that his input seems too similar to Rogan's for me. Maybe when Rogan leaves Cruz can take his place and we see a Anik/Cruz and DC combo?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Paid Members

Agreed on Cruz's voice. He's really good at what he does but his voice grates on me after a bit and although I like him, he's not particularly likeable if that makes sense and his voice is just too robotic at times. 

It's a good situation to be in though. They're spoilt for choice with options for colour commentators now with Rogan, Stann, Cormier and Cruz. I'm glad they're using Florian less. I think he's shite myself. It's play by play announcers they need really. Anik has grown on me but he can't be everywhere and do everything. And I can't take to Todd Grisham at all. But I can't think of anyone else. I could probably think of another 5-10 fighters/ex fighters/coaches etc that would probably be great colour guys. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Paid Members

I've heard and read a lot of criticism for the team at the weekend (most notably Luke Thomas), which surprised me. I agree with you lot, in that it's a good time when DC and Rogan are together.

Cruz is definitely more insightful, but Cormier is more personable - who else would rock out a Jericho "DRINK IT IN MAAAAAN" during the middle of a UFC PPV, the loveable goof.

 

Quote

Also, Miocic doesn't seem unbeatable. Werdum fought like a twerp against him, and Overeem had him in trouble. He doesn't project the same aura that Fedor did after handling Nog in late 2004, or after beating Cro Cop in August of 2005. Cain had a similar aura after winning his rubber match against JDS. You could argue that Miocic has faced better opponents, but I would call that into question - especially in the case of Fedor.

Fedor faced a prime version of Cro Cop, and a version of Nog that was at his physical peak. Were JDS, Hunt, and Werdum at their respective bests when Miocic beat them? I don't think so. I would also say that the version of JDS that Cain mauled in their rematch was a more dangerous version than the one Miocic faced this past weekend. Heavyweight has always been a bit of a lottery. However, it feels that the element of chance has risen lately. I sometimes get the impression that on any given night, 4 or 5 fighters could easily become Champion, and not because the standard has improved. 

He's unbeaten in 5, though, all by knocking a bitch out.. Fedor was prone to getting caught, but he won in the end, which is what Stipe is doing. I agree Cain had an ECW Taz thing about him, however, even then he got made to look very average against Werdum and JDS beat him in no time. Overall, both Cain and Stipe have 2 losses on their record - similarly, both have avenged one of those losses in impressive fashion.

On who Stipe has beaten, JDS is clearly not what he once was, but did look good last time he fought. Werdum was and probably still is in his prime - after all he only just beat Cain for the bloody belt a few months before, beating Cain handily on the feet and then the ground, no question he sparked out prime Werdum in Brazil (mind, people were talking up Werdum as a contender for best heavyweight ever going into the fight). Hunt is dangerous (again, let's not forget his fight before Stipe was for the interm title, where he looked dangerous before "I don't think so" Werdum killed him with a knee). Let's not forget about his impressive comeback win against the form Overeem, who was probably top 3 heavyweight in the world at the time Stipe knocked him out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ColinBollocks said:

Fedor was prone to getting caught, but he won in the end, which is what Stipe is doing.

It is true that he got clipped by Fujita, and Randleman spiked him on his head - but those occasions were very much the exceptions to the rule. I don't recall a time where the likes of Cro Cop, Nog, Babalu, Coleman, Herring,etc had him in serious bother. The only blemishes on his record in his prime were a no-contest against Nog due to a accidental headbutt, and a controversial elbow-based cut stoppage early on his career.

I relived Fedor's bouts with Cro Cop and Nog around 3 or 4 years back, and I was taken aback. The guy was a machine at his best. You could not imagine anyone beating him. When I first got into MMA, the fucker was topping pound for pound lists - at a time where Penn, Hughes and Shogun were all either in their primes, or in the midst of fruitful runs. A Heavyweight topping the P4P list. That in itself is impressive. 

Miocic is building a great resume, but I'm still not sold. I agree that the version of Werdum that Miocic beat was far superior to the Werdum of previous years. However, while Miocic succeeded in picking his pockets, I don't think that Werdum did himself justice that night. Despite my reservations, there's only so many times you can say "yeah but". The more Miocic wins, the more he will become the consistent theme. If Miocic beats Cain, and adds another few defences - possibly against surging opposition like Lewis or Ngannou as Lamby said, then I will have to review things. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Paid Members
5 hours ago, wandshogun09 said:

Forgot to mention, I loved DC on commentary again. Seriously, he's probably my favourite commentator these days. He doesn't always offer the in depth analysis like a Stann or Cruz might but he's good enough at that, he's likeable as fuck and he makes it more fun with his personality. The fact you can tell he's having the time of his life is infectious. You get the feeling it's not just a case of doing a job for him. He loves it and he's like a big kid getting to do his dream job. 

 

100% agree. I messaged a few mates whilst watching to say that. Him and Rogan bounce off each other and it's uplifting to hear DC cracking up in the booth. He talks a lot of sense in between the fun though. I hope he's in the booth as much as possible. I'll take that over the robotic nature of a Goldberg/Rogan combo which just worked like clockwork.

* Excellent show though, the main prelims were arguably the best set ever, just a shame Poirier/Alvarez ended like it did. I'd like to see that get a go over as a main event though, very deserving of those extra rounds and the spotlight. That downed opponent rule is fucking ridiculous though, it's causing problems and no one really seems to have a definitive answer when it happens.

* Maia getting a title shot is overdue but i'd personally have preferred to see Masvidal move on. Maia is worthy of the shot but i'd prefer to watch Masvidal fight anyday of the week, especially with the added chip in his shoulder. Great fight to highlight how MMA fights should be scored though, rounds 2 and 3 were literally split down the middle.

* Why did i ever doubt Frankie Edgar? I dunno if it was the language barrier making it come off a little more arrogant that it was meant but hearing Rodriguez say pre-fight that he expected to be a bigger star than Canelo Alvarez in a years time had me thinking maybe he was getting a little ahead of himself. Edgar didn't let him do anything and just smashed his way to the win. Edgar is the man.

* The heavyweight fight felt anti-climatic, JDS being backed up constantly to the cage was never gonna end well, the low kicks were effective but Miocic forward pressure was too much. I'd like to see that be a bow put on Junior's career, great guy but that would have been his last shot and i'd hate to see him take punishment lower down the rankings when he doesn't need too. Miocic really warmed to be during fight week, i enjoy him as a fighter but getting to understand his personality has made me like him a little more.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Paid Members
1 hour ago, jimufctna24 said:

It is true that he got clipped by Fujita, and Randleman spiked him on his head - but those occasions were very much the exceptions to the rule. I don't recall a time where the likes of Cro Cop, Nog, Babalu, Coleman, Herring,etc had him in serious bother. The only blemishes on his record in his prime were a no-contest against Nog due to a accidental headbutt, and a controversial elbow-based cut stoppage early on his career. 

I can remember one other example which actually shows how amazing Fedor was - when Brett Rogers (before people knew how shit he was really) broke his nose with his first shot, and Fedor just went on to destroy him. But he did get a bit more than clipped by Rogers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...