Guest Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 So there's a discussion ongoing in the Survivor Series thread, about what makes great heels, with one guy arguing that the likes of Owens and AJ could take pointers from a 'proper' non-cheered heel like The Miz, but I'm wondering how it got to this point of week-to-week alignment ignoring by the fans that we see now, and I fear we may never see the end of. I dont think AJ/Owens are bad heels because they get cheers. Crowds now just seem to kind of judge everyone on some kind of ridiculous overall-wrestling-fan reputation, however unfair that reputation may be, and stories take a backseat. It's why Reigns gets booed still no matter what, and a Seth Rollins gets a shit-ton of leeway to bore us to tears.  I do miss when if a heel got cheered in a 'cool' city or vice versa, it at least felt novel, or proper noteworthy. Now... Brooklyn, Philly, Canada... who cares? Everywhere - and directly as a result - nowhere is the 'cool' cities now. No wonder Canada got given their first PPV in yonks, there's fuck all for them to really sabotage anymore.  You can't completely blame the internet and newsletters, it wasn't totally like this a decade ago. So I'm racking my brains trying to think of how it's evolved.  Cena is obviously a pretty pivotal character in all of this. I'd like to revisit 04/05 TV when he was getting that first proper push, he was fucking everywhere, all of a sudden he's got a rap album and music vids, they went all out on the guy and it was super polarizing for a lot of fans. I used to remember reading a lot of hate for him on youtube comments and the like, but it stayed quiet amongst live crowds for the most part. My timeline is sketchy, but I think Christian was the first anti-Cena heel that smarks were loving. Those two had fantastic chemistry and should have done bigger things together  Another pivotal point is probably ECW One Night Stand 2006. Of course you had Cena v RVD on that show, and a fucking brutally hostile reception for Big Match John, and it was fucking awesome to watch. Randy also was given some seething treatment on that show. The whole reboot of ECW and the ensuing crushing disappointment of that likely gave that group of fans a kick up the arse and to become more vocal.  Punk and Bryan as well, definite key men in this situation. Cos reasons that have been discussed a million times - fucked over by the company yada yada. Initially beloved by internet die-hards, their reputation quietly spread and all of a sudden you could probably find loads of people who've never watched ROH or indies who are complaining about the poor treatment of these 2. I mean loads of guys have been sort of taken to by the fans because they feel the worker deserves better, but none more than these 2  Punk and That Promo are another major, major aspect to this. I wasn't watching at the time, but that must have been so fucking jarring to hear that kind of promo in 2011. Punk and Cena knock it out of the fucking park in Philly in one of the best matches in company history. Fuck addressing what happened afterwards, but it was definitely key. The cruiserweight division can attest to that as I'm sure they love it when fans chant "CM Punk" during their match-ups (just what the fuck is that about by the way?) Then of course Punk fucks off, Cabana podcast. It all kind of exploded, it seems. Right after Boo-tista's Rumble as well. Rough fucking time for the company  Bryan and the yes movement almost felt like an orgasmic release for the crowds. This is the equivalent of Little Mo cunting Trevor with that iron  Overall, I think we have to assign a fair bit of blame to the company themselves. If we're not gonna have a go at each individual mark for doing stupid shit that is. The company has just sleepwalked for long periods at a time. Just what the fuck were they doing between like 2008-2012-ish? There's a better sense of direction now but we're still feeling the effect of basically zero stars made during this period. They breeded their own discontempt, allowed more and more to become disengaged with the product and made it a love/hate relationship for the die-hard fans. Eventually fans started to become more vocal, to the point now where they're almost directing the show. I don't like it, but there's my attempt to rationalize it.  Thoughts on the whole crowd sitch, then and now? Could we conceivably ever go back to just being politely quiet if you don't care for the babyface and his big push? What about people who'd get fucking murdered by crowds nowadays? Bobby Lashley is bloody lucky he never had to deal with this lot. Fuck, I hate to say it but maybe even Batista. It's an interesting one with him, so beloved back in 05 and never got too much backlash from my recollection but obviously, he came back and we all know what happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted November 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2016 One of the reasons is that all the heels do cool moves. They dont give you much of a reason to boo them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosler28 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Can we include crowd stupid chants in this ? Cant stand modern day crowds, some are funny and maybe once but repeating the same shit chant over and over is embarrassing. You dont get that in the ufc or boxing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosler28 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Can we include crowd stupid chants in this ? Cant stand modern day crowds, some are funny and maybe once but repeating the same shit chant over and over is embarrassing. You dont get that in the ufc or boxing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 One of the reasons is that all the heels do cool moves. They dont give you much of a reason to boo them.They do cool moves and don't act like bad guys so they can shift more merch. I think being a proper heel is discouraged in modern WWE because when half your roster are hated it takes a chunk out of merch money. Before the goodies would sell most the merch, now the baddies are responsible for it as well. People seem to think Kevin Owens or Seth Rollins just like being cheered because it's cool, ignoring the fact they get much larger royalty cheques for wrestling the way they do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted November 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2016 They do cool moves and don't act like bad guys so they can shift more merch. I think being a proper heel is discouraged in modern WWE because when half your roster are hated it takes a chunk out of merch money. Â Before the goodies would sell most the merch, now the baddies are responsible for it as well. People seem to think Kevin Owens or Seth Rollins just like being cheered because it's cool, ignoring the fact they get much larger royalty cheques for wrestling the way they do Funny that, because your mate CM Punk never got many cheers as a heel in 2013/14 and he sold more merch than just about anybody. Because he had higher goals than shifting a few t-shirts and getting some pops from the crowd doing flashy moves. If you're good enough at your craft moves mean absolutely nothing when you're a heel or a babyface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Jazzy G Posted November 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2016 It does seem to be more about selling the merch than pleasing the crowds. This may be why we don't get a Bully Ray style heel run from Bubba, which is a shame because somebody like that who knows how to get heat might help get Roman Reigns over. Remember the Edge Cena feud? People were cheering the hell out of Cena during that run. That said there've been a few moments where Jericho and Reigns have occupied the same ring, and Jericho knows how to heat a crowd but hasn't succeeded. He's tried bait and switches with the list thing, everything and people are still booing Reigns, which is quite confusing when they kill the crowd mics during both men's entrances to try and pretend the pops/heat aren't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Supremo Posted November 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2016 I was thinking of starting a thread about shit chants after Saturday's Takeover. I'm not sure of the rules in terms of spoilers, so I won't go into specifics, but there was at least one huge moment that was completely ruined by a shit, smarky chant. Â Nobody can just enjoy a babyface victory anymore. They have to act above it all and chant, "you deserve it." Same with a returning wrestler getting,"you've still got it," chants or a great match getting, "this is wrestling," chants. It seriously does my head in. It's so awkward and embarrassing to share the same form of entertainment with these meffs. I know you pay your money, so are entitled to chant whatever you want, but I'm just as equally entitled to be embarrassed by it. It's like instead of watching the movie, you've got to put the DVD commentary on, but instead of it being the director or the actors it's some lame, weirdo fans trying to sound knowledgeable. Â I think the rise of the internet is the main reason. Back in the late nineties we were all that type of shit fan, thinking Chris Benoit was the greatest and that guys weren't getting the push they deserved or whatever. The unfortunate thing is that as a lot of us have grown out of it the internet has become much bigger and so that fan has become the norm. Their shitty product driving away everyone but the hardest of hardcore fans probably played a part too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 Probably a decent point there, my post was more to do with moments and individuals, but overall style has got to be taken into account. I'm not sure it completely explains the situation we have now though. A heel Angle, Eddie or HBK never struggled for heat, and Reigns now is almost exclusively cool move after cool move with some selling in between and the fans dont give him an inch. but Kat may have made a great point, at least in regards to the heels, and their merch cut, shifting up that general heel style. There's some very notable exceptions with like nWo, early Stone Cold, HHH circa 2000, but heels have never felt more marketable. Trouble is there isnt a huge amount of despicable shit being done to even it out more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakashi Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 One of the reasons for this also, is that millions and millions of fans have simply left wrestling behind. Almost every tv taping and PPV has the hardcores that watch no matter what and always cheer for the "better wrestlers". It's a hive mind. They boo Roman because it's what people do. Roman is fucking awesome. Cena is fucking awesome. But they boo them because it's the thing they see others do and it's got to the point where the don't have a reason for booing, they just do it. Roman was fantastic last night and they boo'd everything he did, except when they thought they were getting the shield back. The fans just can't enjoy something. They're like the young bucks in a three minute match. They just have to get all their shit in. Usually so they can wank each other off on Reddit about their cool sign or colt cabana head. Â So it's not just that the fans are shit. It's that only the shit fans go to the televised stuff. I was at a few house shows recently and the fans boo'd the heels (including AJ) and cheered the babyfaces (including Roman) and it was so much better than going to one of the TVs and have fans scream Husky Harris at Bray and you can't wrestle at Roman. Â Batista would have had no fucking chance these days. And he was a bigger star than any of these guys now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I was thinking of starting a thread about shit chants after Saturday's Takeover. I'm not sure of the rules in terms of spoilers, so I won't go into specifics, but there was at least one huge moment that was completely ruined by a shit, smarky chant. Â Nobody can just enjoy a babyface victory anymore. They have to act above it all and chant, "you deserve it." Same with a returning wrestler getting,"you've still got it," chants or a great match getting, "this is wrestling," chants. It seriously does my head in. It's so awkward and embarrassing to share the same form of entertainment with these meffs. I know you pay your money, so are entitled to chant whatever you want, but I'm just as equally entitled to be embarrassed by it. Aye, I know exactly the match and chant you're referring to and it's ridiculous. The reaction for that great match was totally organic. I love when just the sound of people's mixed shock and screams and emotion just creates a visceral rising sound in a match....and then they pipe up..of course they fucking deserve it!! The last thing you need to do is.underline it verbally. I could sense that, because I have ears and can put two and two together Similar with a 'this is awesome' - though at least about 3% of those are natural, organic reactions, similar to a "holy shit" spot. If it was truly awesome, your natural reaction probably told me so. If not, it probably wasn't all that awesome. And when it's just at the start of a match then well bollocks to ya, if you're not even gonna try.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Benno Posted November 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2016 I don't think other companies quite have the level of problem WWE do with this, especially to level the problem is with Roman Reigns. Yes part of that is they're the establishment and people are just more prone to rebel than they are in NXT, TNA, ROH and wherever, but a lot of blame still lies with the company. Their tonedeafness and poor casting/writing is a big part of it. Â I don't think the solution is entirely as simple as a JR or someone would have you believe though - that heels should cheat more and not do the flashy moves. I like acts like the Miz and Revival but not everybody can be them. Â At the end of the day it's a TV Product. Yes in some cases it would help in moderation but I really don't think you can get away with half the roster being old school heat getting heels, laying in stomps, grabbing tights, raking eyes and avoiding doing much else in fear of it getting a pop either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted November 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2016 While I don't think WWE should always give in to the hard-core fans, I do think their stubbornness is their downfall a lot of the time. They should roll with it far more and give people what they want. If people want to boo Roman Reigns then make him dastardly. What have you to lose? We're way past the point where he's ever going to be John Cena. Plus, if he turns because the crowd turned on him, that's great motivation for a heel and eventual babyface. Â Why is Seth Rollins coming back as a heel after injury when people want to cheer him? Why are you turning AJ Styles when he's over and people love him. Why not turn Ambrose who is aloof and a great talker. Â You get away with it more with a heel who is cheered but if it's vice versa and you're past the point where you can tweak the character then you've got to just go with it. This is the reality era, right? They used to be great at that. They aren't now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Tommy! Posted November 21, 2016 Paid Members Share Posted November 21, 2016 Wrestling fans do seem to be slowly collapsing in on them selves in some sort of smart mark self-referential ego driven wank-a-thon at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 I think there is a sense of entitlement now that wasn't there before, what with the Internet and social media in particular. Being invited to partake in the universe by tweeting a hashtag means Nomates McGee feels important. And that's before we get into the world of YouTube opinion videos. Always makes me think of that pudding basin headed stalker who's mood was horny. Â Cody St Mark can write his blog and all it takes is one hit and he thinks his opinion actually carries as much weight as your mum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.