The "Jon Jones gone screwed up again" thread

[David]

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Come on, that's just as massive a presumption as me claiming someone a career-long cheater (caught twice - one for "dick pills") because his post-USADA career has been shady.

What I posted wasn't an assumption, it's drawn from the facts surrounding the drug itself. Go and look if you want, Turinabol is only around 10% effective when it's used on its own (and seeing as he was only flagged for Turinabol and none of the other drugs usually stacked with it, it's not an assumption to say he hadn't stacked it.)

Turinabol on its own promotes weight management. So, it's not a massive stretch to say that Jones was using it to manage his weight, is it?

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Also, I appreciate he never got caught for anything pre-USADA - as Sonnen put it back then, those days were more an intelligence test. Plus, even if it's anecdotal, there has been all manner of stories about Jones for years. Personally, I think you're being naive if you don't at least suspect some foul play before this, and in fairness to Jones, it was apparently very common, so Jones was just making sure he at least had an even chance against the worst offenders.

Come on Colin, you're quoting Chael Sonnen? Seriously? 

For anyone who knows how PED's work, there are certain drugs that seriously affect your performance, and those drugs are the ones that have been tested for regularly for years. It's not as if pre-USADA the UFC was the wild west, where dudes were juiced up on all manner of shit.

It's also not the case that you can just choose a drug and get started, for the kind of effects that most people imagine when they hear someone was on PED's you have to be stacking a number of these banned drugs, and stacking means there's more in your system to get flagged.

The truth is, the days of athletes seeing the kind of effects that most fans think PED's provide are long gone. It simply isn't possible anymore, and hasn't been for decades.

Most drug violations are for what could be described as minor infringements, where the athlete is looking for a little help shifting water weight, or they're taking a certain type of pain med for a pre-existing injury that contains trace amounts of a banned substance, or they're getting on in years and need a bit of a boost in getting through training camp and so on.

For Jones to be on something that would allow him to burn through opponents like he has, and kick DC into oblivion like he did he'd have to have been stacking all manner of shit, which would have set off multiple alarm bells all over the place as soon as even the most basic of testing took place.

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I don't disagree Jones would probably be a fantastic fighter without the gear - DC points out why in that clip above. Barry Bonds was a brilliant ball player, before he got on the juice, but on it (and again, he was just cheating with the worst) he went for an A player to an A++. Now his career (or, certainly, a chunk of it), similar to Jones, has a big old * next to it.

Again, this would highlight the ignorance of the general public, wouldn't it? Jones case is nothing like that of Bonds. Bonds was part of a group of well paid athletes who used a "super steroid" in the early & mid 2000's.

Drug testing back then simply wasn't on the level that it is today. A Barry Bonds wouldn't get away with taking something like that today, as the ingredients used to create the drug would be setting off alarm bells all over the place.

The facts suggest that Jones took one steroid which, on its own, is effective in weight management for athletes by reducing the natural water weight gained during training. For him to have enjoyed the other benefits that are linked with Turinabol he'd have to have been stacking it with other substances, but as he wasn't flagged for anything else at all its safe to say that he wasn't doing that.

As I mentioned above, his post-fight interview where he calls out Lesnar would suggest that he was looking to make that move to heavyweight, so it kind of ties in with his use of this drug. This is the only part of my post where I've made an assumption. The rest is based on fact.

[David]

And let me be clear, I'm not excusing Jones from what he did. He broke the rules (knowingly, in my opinion) and should suffer the consequences. All I'm saying is that it's not quite as simple as a lot of pundits and fighters such as Nate Diaz would have you believe, that you pop a pill or inject a liquid and you can smash through opponents as though you're stacking 'roids like it's 1985.

It's not as clear cut as that, and it really doesn't suggest that without Turinabol he'd have been a different fighter. His reputation has been damaged beyond repair, which is pretty sad when you see the actual benefits of the drug he was taking. I stand by my assessment that his own laziness and flawed character are what have caused him to go down this route, as he certainly doesn't need any external help from a physical or skillset standpoint.

[ColinBollocks]

Fuck me. Limit the characters, David, ha.

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What I posted wasn't an assumption, it's drawn from the facts surrounding the drug itself. Go and look if you want, Turinabol is only around 10% effective when it's used on its own (and seeing as he was only flagged for Turinabol and none of the other drugs usually stacked with it, it's not an assumption to say he hadn't stacked it.)

Turinabol on its own promotes weight management. So, it's not a massive stretch to say that Jones was using it to manage his weight, is it?

Not a stretch, but it is an assumption.

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Come on Colin, you're quoting Chael Sonnen? Seriously? 

For anyone who knows how PED's work, there are certain drugs that seriously affect your performance, and those drugs are the ones that have been tested for regularly for years. It's not as if pre-USADA the UFC was the wild west, where dudes were juiced up on all manner of shit.

It's also not the case that you can just choose a drug and get started, for the kind of effects that most people imagine when they hear someone was on PED's you have to be stacking a number of these banned drugs, and stacking means there's more in your system to get flagged.

The truth is, the days of athletes seeing the kind of effects that most fans think PED's provide are long gone. It simply isn't possible anymore, and hasn't been for decades.

Most drug violations are for what could be described as minor infringements, where the athlete is looking for a little help shifting water weight, or they're taking a certain type of pain med for a pre-existing injury that contains trace amounts of a banned substance, or they're getting on in years and need a bit of a boost in getting through training camp and so on.

For Jones to be on something that would allow him to burn through opponents like he has, and kick DC into oblivion like he did he'd have to have been stacking all manner of shit, which would have set off multiple alarm bells all over the place as soon as even the most basic of testing took place.

When it comes to PEDs Sonnen knows a thing or two.

Also, I think the fact the UFC felt the need to get USADA involved (at a great cost) shows the landscape they were dealing with not so long ago. If their previous testing system was working effectively, are they really getting USADA involved?

Again, the intelligence test quote is because there are ways to get around pissing hot (back in the day, at least) - plenty of other PED-heavy sports have testing, for the drugs that work, but it's fact that time and again athletes find ways to get round the testing. The drug Jones got popped for is only supposed to only have a short shelf life, but the short term boost it gives you is pretty spectacular.

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Again, this would highlight the ignorance of the general public, wouldn't it? Jones case is nothing like that of Bonds. Bonds was part of a group of well paid athletes who used a "super steroid" in the early & mid 2000's.

Drug testing back then simply wasn't on the level that it is today. A Barry Bonds wouldn't get away with taking something like that today, as the ingredients used to create the drug would be setting off alarm bells all over the place.

You missed my point, which is a tale of two brilliant athletes cutting corners when they probably didn't need to, which effectively hurt their legacy. I'm not being literal and comparing the shit they've taken - for a start it's different sports.

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The facts suggest that Jones took one steroid which, on its own, is effective in weight management for athletes by reducing the natural water weight gained during training. For him to have enjoyed the other benefits that are linked with Turinabol he'd have to have been stacking it with other substances, but as he wasn't flagged for anything else at all its safe to say that he wasn't doing that.

Granted, my sources about the drug is essentially Rogan and Luke Thomas, but they claim their sources tell them Turinabol is something that would have probably given him some very clear short term benefits in training, not just weight management. If you have literature saying the opposite I'll give it a read.

[David]

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Not a stretch, but it is an assumption.

I'm afraid I don't quite follow. If someone takes a singular PED that has a benefit of assisting in weight loss and water retention issues, then why is it an assumption to say that the person taking the drug is using it for those reasons?

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When it comes to PEDs Sonnen knows a thing or two.

Sonnen is no fool, but what he knows and what he actually says in public are usually two different things. 

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Also, I think the fact the UFC felt the need to get USADA involved (at a great cost) shows the landscape they were dealing with not so long ago. If their previous testing system was working effectively, are they really getting USADA involved?

 

Do you think the UFC got USADA involved in order to clean up the sport? Really? 

The UFC brought USADA into the fold because it was actually more cost-effective in the long-run than what they were already doing. As things stood in the pre-USADA era, the UFC  were faced with two options when looking to stage an event.

They could either ensure that the location fell under the jurisdiction of an athletic commission, who would handle all of the testing for them (at cost, of course), or if they were running a show in a city or country where no athletic commission was in place they had to do it themselves, which involved outsourcing the testing, the running of results and so on. We saw how much of a clusterfuck all of that can be when they ran that show in Macau, remember? The whole Cung Le saga? He was announced as having failed a drug test only for it to emerge that the lab the UFC hired fucked it all up?

Now, I'm sure that the owners of the UFC at the time were being honest when they said that they were paying out a fair bit of cash to bring USADA into the fold, but honestly, people like the Fertitta's tend not to dip into their own pocket unless they see a positive end game. And by that I mean an end game where they generate more cash than they're spending, not the warm feeling they get inside their tummy from knowing they're fighting the good fight against drug abuse.

USADA provided them with an opportunity to outsource the drug testing and punishment side of things. A one stop shop really, allowing them to ramp up their international expansion without worrying about athletic commissions and having to run their own drug testing procedure every time they ventured outside the US.

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Again, the intelligence test quote is because there are ways to get around pissing hot (back in the day, at least) - plenty of other PED-heavy sports have testing, for the drugs that work, but it's fact that time and again athletes find ways to get round the testing. The drug Jones got popped for is only supposed to only have a short shelf life, but the short term boost it gives you is pretty spectacular.

Of course athletes find a way around testing, it's always going to happen. Testing becomes more advanced as drugs become more advanced.

The drug Jones popped for does have a short shelf life, that's true, but the boost it gives you, when taken on its own, isn't the kind of boost that would change the way Jones performs in the cage. On its own Turinabol is considered a "weaker anabolic", which only really comes into its own when it's stacked with other drugs. 

There are numerous articles and sources discussing Turinabol, but one thing that keeps popping up in all of the sources I've read is the use and effectiveness of the drug on its own, which is summed up perfectly in this quote;

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This relatively mild anabolic is used during cutting phases, fat loss periods and pre-contest bodybuilding.

Jones was using it to cut weight. It allows the user to avoid water retention and protein breakdown when working out. I've seen a lot of people say that they use this when getting themselves down to sub 10% bodyfat is the goal.

And again, none of this excuses Jones from doing what he did. None of it. My main point at the beginning of all this is that taking Turinabol wouldn't have given Jones the ability that it required to headkick Cormier to defeat in their match. 

My main gripe is when people hear the phrase PED and immediately assume that it was the use of the PED that provided the fighter with all of the talents to win the fights that he won, and that without them he wouldn't be the same guy.

In some rare cases, that may be true, but in the majority of cases it simply isn't. As I said, most fighters who use PED's do so to assist in weight loss. When you see what they put their bodies through you can understand that line of thinking to an extent, even if it is still against the rules.

It's a pretty safe bet that the use of Turinabol isn't the reason why Jones beat Cormier. Twice. 

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Granted, my sources about the drug is essentially Rogan and Luke Thomas, but they claim their sources tell them Turinabol is something that would have probably given him some very clear short term benefits in training, not just weight management. If you have literature saying the opposite I'll give it a read.

It would have provided him some benefits in training simply because he wouldn't have been as hung up on weight cutting as he would have without it. He could probably be a bit looser with his diet, and he wouldn't have seen as much lean muscle breakdown during any weight cut that he did have to do.

But those benefits are the same as you'd get from any other PED that assists in weight cutting, aren't they? 

Again, my main point isn't that this drug has no real value to someone like Jones, because it obviously does or he wouldn't have taken it, my point is that those who are banging the "steroids!! he took steroids!!" drum are way off when they start to doubt the entire legacy of the man based on it. 

The drug he took didn't help him stuff Cormier's takedowns, it didn't help him use his reach to wear Cormier down, and it certainly didn't provide him with the ability to throw that stupendous headkick that had DC guessing which day of the week it was.

Edited September 14, 2017 by David

[ColinBollocks]

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Do you think the UFC got USADA involved in order to clean up the sport? Really? 

The UFC brought USADA into the fold because it was actually more cost-effective in the long-run than what they were already doing. As things stood in the pre-USADA era, the UFC  were faced with two options when looking to stage an event.

They could either ensure that the location fell under the jurisdiction of an athletic commission, who would handle all of the testing for them (at cost, of course), or if they were running a show in a city or country where no athletic commission was in place they had to do it themselves, which involved outsourcing the testing, the running of results and so on. We saw how much of a clusterfuck all of that can be when they ran that show in Macau, remember? The whole Cung Le saga? He was announced as having failed a drug test only for it to emerge that the lab the UFC hired fucked it all up?

Now, I'm sure that the owners of the UFC at the time were being honest when they said that they were paying out a fair bit of cash to bring USADA into the fold, but honestly, people like the Fertitta's tend not to dip into their own pocket unless they see a positive end game. And by that I mean an end game where they generate more cash than they're spending, not the warm feeling they get inside their tummy from knowing they're fighting the good fight against drug abuse.

USADA provided them with an opportunity to outsource the drug testing and punishment side of things. A one stop shop really, allowing them to ramp up their international expansion without worrying about athletic commissions and having to run their own drug testing procedure every time they ventured outside the US.

The UFC aren't always cunts, you know. I appreciate this is just point scoring now, but to completely discredit a positive intention, when it promotes positive intentions is silly. No doubt a reason behind the new testing is to cover their arse from potential litigation, but another is the fact they realised their sport was dirty and they needed it - if there wasn't an issue they aren't bothering their arse, which was my original point.

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It's a pretty safe bet that the use of Turinabol isn't the reason why Jones beat Cormier. Twice. 

Plus last 70 paragraphs.

This goes back to my Barry Bonds paragraph. Jones is probably a much better fighter than DC without it, but, again, that * (and now no-contest) means people aren't going to always give him his due. It's a shame, but he cheated. Personally, to completely discount the effectiveness of a PED over a win is wonky, only because you do it to get an edge. DC said in that youtube clip he posted that he'd have loved to have taken some steroid-filled crispy chicken to make training easier and more effective, as it helps the end result.

 

[lambyUK]

You may be right David, Jones may have used the drug the make weight, but if that is the case, he's obviously coming into the fight with a huge advantage. If Jones never had to go through the hell to make weight, he's arguably coming into that fight a shit load fresher than a Cormier who's had to go through the normal grueling way to make weight. 

You specify that the drug wouldn't have made a difference to a head kick that Jones delivered, but who's to say the guy wouldn't have been too knackered to deliver that kick come the second round if he had to cut weight by traditional ways.

There's no doubt as it's well documented that a draining weight cut can have a major impact on a fighter's cardio, and with the pace of that first round, a Jones who hasn't cheated, could be far more suspect to a takedown or less able to land a head kick.

Jones cheated, and for me, that's going to be far more of a blemish on his career than losses for DC against Jones. DC knows that the guy cheated to fight him, and absolutely nothing will change that now. 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by lambyUK

[David]

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The UFC aren't always cunts, you know. I appreciate this is just point scoring now, but to completely discredit a positive intention, when it promotes positive intentions is silly. No doubt a reason behind the new testing is to cover their arse from potential litigation, but another is the fact they realised their sport was dirty and they needed it - if there wasn't an issue they aren't bothering their arse, which was my original point.

It has nothing to do with being cunts, and more to do with successful businessmen not investing money in something they don't think will provide a return. They spent the money on hiring USADA because they knew it would make their overseas expansion a whole lot easier and less costly in the long run. It's that simple really. And that's not a slight on the UFC.

If hiring USADA wasn't cost-effective they wouldn't have done it. They would have continued as they were.

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This goes back to my Barry Bonds paragraph. Jones is probably a much better fighter than DC without it, but, again, that * (and now no-contest) means people aren't going to always give him his due. It's a shame, but he cheated. Personally, to completely discount the effectiveness of a PED over a win is wonky, only because you do it to get an edge. DC said in that youtube clip he posted that he'd have loved to have taken some steroid-filled crispy chicken to make training easier and more effective, as it helps the end result.

DC's comment is exactly what I'm talking about though. People trying to simplify it right down to "taking steroids makes it easy and is why you win things" is fucking nonsense. DC could take all the steroid-filled crispy chicken he wanted to in order to help him lose weight (although why use steroids when you can use a towel, right?) but that wouldn't have made him taller, more athletic, have a higher fight IQ, be tougher mentally or given him better reach.

And I'm not completely discounting the effect of the PED. As I said, if it didn't help him he wouldn't have taken it. What I'm saying (and have said lots of times already) is that taking the PED he did isn't the reason why he won, which is what a lot of people are claiming. He won because he's simply a better fighter than Cormier is. 

And I get it, people don't like Jones. He's an arsehole, and it would be much easier if life's good guys like Cormier came out on top, but it doesn't work that way. 

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You may be right David, Jones may have used the drug the make weight, but if that is the case, he's obviously coming into the fight with a huge advantage. If Jones never had to go through the hell to make weight, he's arguably coming into that fight a shit load fresher than a Cormier who's had to go through the normal grueling way to make weight.

I don't think he "went through hell" to make the weight before using that particular PED if I'm honest. I think he used it because he had one eye on the Lesnar or Stipe fight at heavyweight and was trying to make 205lbs whilst still training and bulking up for a heavyweight bout in the future. Looking at the benefits it provides, I honestly believe he was trying to be smart and enable himself a way to make a quick jump to heavyweight after beating DC. Doing it the "natural" way he would have had to fight at 205lbs, then start his prep for the jump afterwards.

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You specify that the drug wouldn't have made a difference to a head kick that Jones delivered, but who's to say the guy wouldn't have been too knackered to deliver that kick come the second round if he had to cut weight by traditional ways.

There's no doubt as it's well documented that a draining weight cut can have a major impact on a fighter's cardio, and with the pace of that first round, a Jones who hasn't cheated, could be far more suspect to a takedown or less able to land a head kick.

If Jones was a fighter with a history of bad weight cuts then I could maybe agree that he needed this drug to make 205lbs, but he hasn't. If anything it's DC who's struggled to make the weight.

As mentioned above, I don't think he needed this PED to make the weight, as he's made the weight plenty of times, I think he was trying to fast-track to heavyweight after the fight.

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Jones cheated, and for me, that's going to be far more of a blemish on his career than losses for DC against Jones. DC knows that the guy cheated to fight him, and absolutely nothing will change that now.

Yeah, for you. Someone who follows the sport quite closely. How many casual fans who saw DC get his head kicked off are gonna be reading the ins & outs of Jones failed drug test? Cormier, like it or not, has been robbed of his potential standing in the sport because he couldn't beat Jon Jones.

He's champion now by default. The very definition of a paper champion. The record may say the fight was a no-contest, and there may be asterisk's on Jones career, but none of that changes the fact that DC got whupped in front of an audience of almost a million people. This wasn't a close decision like the Gustafsson fight, this was a proper highlight reel KO.

That doesn't go away.

Edited September 14, 2017 by David

[ColinBollocks]

I think we're just going to end up repeating our points time and again, so let's just agree to disagree on this, David.

[Keith Houchen]

The way some people frame it, I could take roids and knock out DC because that's how it works.  This isn't that potion Tim Roth took in that Hulk film, although I would have me some of that.

Like David, I'm not saying Jones did nothing wrong, he knew the rules and broke them like he broke DC.

[Carbomb]

1 hour ago, David said:

He's champion now by default. The very definition of a paper champion. The record may say the fight was a no-contest, and there may be asterisk's on Jones career, but none of that changes the fact that DC got whupped in front of an audience of almost a million people. This wasn't a close decision like the Gustafsson fight, this was a proper highlight reel KO.

That doesn't go away.

I agree with everything you said in that post, but the pedant in me has to challenge the bit in bold. The definition of a paper champion is one who's only dangerous on paper, and whose record doesn't reflect just how poor a fighter he is. Cormier lost to Jones, true, but let's not get carried away. He's beaten everyone else he's ever faced, he's defended against some of the top talent in the UFC. Ultimately, as you yourself said, styles make fights, and in DC's case, Jones has his number in a way that nobody else does. It doesn't make him a paper champion, and when the guy who should be champion is too much of a cock-end to hold it and defend it properly, that's not his fault.

I don't know what the right epithet would be ("pretender to the throne", perhaps?), but it's not "paper champion".

[David]

In my opinion, the best way of sorting out the situation would have been signing a match between DC and maybe Gustafsson? Winner is the new champ? I don't think they did Cormier any favours by just handing him back the belt after the way he was stopped.

Vacate the title, and have the top two guys face off for it.

[wandshogun09]

I agree. It's almost like they're trying to get DC heel heat. Like when Eric Bischoff just handed Triple H the title years ago. 

Seriously though, it's a shit situation all-round but they had to give him the title back really. He was the champ going in and it's been ruled a No Contest. If it was ruled a NC on the night for some reason, DC would've obviously kept the title. The belt has to go back. But yeah, it doesn't do DC any favours really. But what can you do? 

[ColinBollocks]

Definitely. I get DC's logic, he earns more money with the belt than without it, so not accepting it back is daft, but those that didn't like him before this (and there were loads) only have more ammunition.

[jimufctna24]

A lot has been written in this thread, and I will digest it all when I have the time to properly go through it all. 

However, for now, I really don't know how to feel about Jones's career. I get the feeling that for most of his career, he was fighting on an even playing field, and his success was purely down to his talent. That's not to say he was always a 100% clean fighter, if ever; more that the goalposts were different back then. Sherdog staffers claimed in 2010 that around 70-80% of fighters were on PED's. Since then, the goalposts have shifted. These days, it's a different ballgame in many ways. 

That being said, I can't really look at Jones in the same way again. There always be that suspicion in my mind when watching old fights of his. I can't really view D.C as highly as I should do either, which isn't really his fault. That knockout loss left quite the impression. It's a shame, but one of the best rivalries in the history of the sport has been tarnished. 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by jimufctna24

[Paul2j]

Jones is clearly a huge cheat and likely has been for his whole career. Everything he has done is irrevocably tarnished.

It is a no contest so it has to be treated as if the fight never happened. DC was Champion before and would be if the fight never happened, so it is the UFC's only real option.