Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
ColinBollocks

The "Jon Jones gone screwed up again" thread

Recommended Posts

You're right about Stipe Wand. He has as much claim to that HW GOAT as Cain does. The longer Cain is out of action as well, the easier it'll be to put Stipe/Fedor in that discussion and leave Velasquez out of it.

Edited by WeeAl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Basically every b sample comes back the same as they take both samples at the same time and unless the lab are retarded then it should be the exactcsame.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I don't really like DC, you have to feel for the guy. His title reign will never get the recognition that it probably deserves from the vast majority. I can see him when he's in his 60's, all bitter and fucked up over the fact that the Jon Jones saga has essentially cast a shadow over his career. A bit like a fat Joe Frazier really.

The UFC can hand him his title back, he can go on to beat Gustafsson again, even go on a bit of a streak. But, the truth is, all the no contests and B-samples in the world won't remove the image of him being kicked into oblivion and sent crying from the cage by Jones. 

That's what the fans are going to remember, and that's a bit of a shame really.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We'll see, David. You may very well be right, but I hope when there is a discussion about both men (and particularly their rivalry), Jones' probable career-long PED usage is taken into account. It's a shame such a titanic rivalry is now muddied.

I think what must haunt DC most is he'll realise he never got to a fair shot at Jones; never truly finding a true solution of whether he's the best fighter. He said a few months ago, after the fight, he was slowly finding peace with the fact Jones is the better man, but he'll never know. Jones beat him, but he was probably cheating every time.

I honestly think DC was right that time he said Jones has probably only ever been 'straight' a couple of times in his career. One v OSP etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

We'll see, David. You may very well be right, but I hope when there is a discussion about both men (and particularly their rivalry), Jones' probable career-long PED usage is taken into account. It's a shame such a titanic rivalry is now muddied.

I think what must haunt DC most is he'll realise he never got to a fair shot at Jones; never truly finding a true solution of whether he's the best fighter. He said a few months ago, after the fight, he was slowly finding peace with the fact Jones is the better man, but he'll never know. Jones beat him, but he was probably cheating every time.

I honestly think DC was right that time he said Jones has probably only ever been 'straight' a couple of times in his career. One v OSP etc.

When it comes to Jones it's important to deal in actual facts. How many times has he been popped for PED's? The first time in 2016 the arbitration panel concluded that Jones didn't take the banned substances intentionally and was not a drug cheat.

The 2nd time? I don't see how there can be much defence for that at all, and he'll rightfully see a lengthy ban. 

However, we need to be careful when we start throwing words like "probable" & "probably" into the mix. Jones was busted twice for PED's, and the first time it was concluded that it was not intentional.

We can't start saying that because he got busted in 2016 and 2017 that he's "probably" been on them for what? Almost ten years? That every one of his fights that he won previously during his UFC run was "probably" down to PED use? And that the only time he wasn't on something just happened to be the one time his performance wasn't great? Come on.

The substance that he was popped for more recently, Turinabol? That's not an easy substance to hide. It's not a new thing, it's been around for over 50 years and has been a known PED since the late 1960's. If he was taking that kind of shit he'd have been popped a long time ago, as it's one of the easiest drugs to identify in even the most basic of drug tests. You don't need a super advanced USADA style test to find that kind of thing.

It's also worth noting that the benefits that most users take Turinabol for, such as greater lean muscle mass and strength and so on aren't there unless the product is "stacked" with other drugs. On it's own its only real benefit is being able to keep your weight down while trying to add muscle mass. It reduces the usual water weight gain that comes with adding muscle. Jones wasn't flagged for any other substance that would have been stacked with Turinabol, which means he's been using it to keep his weight down while training by the looks of it. There really isn't any other benefit to taking that drug on its own.

I honestly believe that his usage of this drug and his post-fight announcement that he wanted the money fight with Lesnar at heavyweight isn't coincidental. I think he's been looking to add the muscle mass to make that move up but still wanted to keep his weight manageable for the title fight with Cormier.

There's a very definite trend in MMA drug failures in that most of them seem to be related to weight management in one way or another.

Anyway, the thing for me is, if either of the DC/Jones fights were like the Gustafsson vs Jones fight then I could see the point of people asking "what if?", but I don't think either fight was particularly close to be honest. Jones simply has Cormier's number. Styles make fights, and Cormier's strengths don't really work that well against Jones.

Still, if telling himself that the only reason Jones managed to handle him with relative ease is because of a PED, then cool. Whatever helps him square it all in his own mind I guess. 

But I have a feeling that he knows different. He was handled by the guy. Twice. The second time he practically managed to do fuck all of note before getting headkicked into a blubbering mess. 

And that image is the one that will likely live long in the memory of fans, as the drug failure announcement and the stripping of the title is all done behind closed doors. Unless you follow the sport to a certain degree you probably won't even know it's happened until the next title match is announced and Cormier has the belt again.

Edited by David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loth as I am to view Jones with any kind of generosity of spirit, I don't think it's fair to claim that the entirety of his run has "probably" been tainted by PED use, for the very simple reason that two of the most notable aspects of his game can't be improved with steroids: namely his reach (and his ability to use it), and his fight IQ. Sure, there's always a chance that he's been on them all his career, but when you look at the way he's won things, it can't all be ascribed to strength, speed, etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Loth as I am to view Jones with any kind of generosity of spirit, I don't think it's fair to claim that the entirety of his run has "probably" been tainted by PED use, for the very simple reason that two of the most notable aspects of his game can't be improved with steroids: namely his reach (and his ability to use it), and his fight IQ. Sure, there's always a chance that he's been on them all his career, but when you look at the way he's won things, it can't all be ascribed to strength, speed, etc. 

Personally, I think his drug use of late has been down to his lazy attitude. Basically, he doesn't want to go through the hassle of cutting weight like everyone else does. It's hard work, and he seems like the kind of guy who isn't really up for hard work. He's been blessed with natural talent, and a lot of times guys like that don't want to put in the shift to drop the weight, especially when he's made noises about moving up to heavyweight to face Brock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, David said:

Personally, I think his drug use of late has been down to his lazy attitude. Basically, he doesn't want to go through the hassle of cutting weight like everyone else does. It's hard work, and he seems like the kind of guy who isn't really up for hard work. He's been blessed with natural talent, and a lot of times guys like that don't want to put in the shift to drop the weight, especially when he's made noises about moving up to heavyweight to face Brock.

Yep, I'd agree with that. Rather appropriate he'd want to face Brock - another guy blessed with natural talent who, if you look at the entire span of his professional career in whatever he's done, has never really wanted to put the work in to be the absolute, ultimate elite he could've been. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, David said:

Personally, I think his drug use of late has been down to his lazy attitude. Basically, he doesn't want to go through the hassle of cutting weight like everyone else does. It's hard work, and he seems like the kind of guy who isn't really up for hard work. He's been blessed with natural talent, and a lot of times guys like that don't want to put in the shift to drop the weight, especially when he's made noises about moving up to heavyweight to face Brock.

Come on, that's just as massive a presumption as me claiming someone a career-long cheater (caught twice - one for "dick pills") because his post-USADA career has been shady.

Also, I appreciate he never got caught for anything pre-USADA - as Sonnen put it back then, those days were more an intelligence test. Plus, even if it's anecdotal, there has been all manner of stories about Jones for years. Personally, I think you're being naive if you don't at least suspect some foul play before this, and in fairness to Jones, it was apparently very common, so Jones was just making sure he at least had an even chance against the worst offenders.

I don't disagree Jones would probably be a fantastic fighter without the gear - DC points out why in that clip above. Barry Bonds was a brilliant ball player, before he got on the juice, but on it (and again, he was just cheating with the worst) he went for an A player to an A++. Now his career (or, certainly, a chunk of it), similar to Jones, has a big old * next to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×